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Post by stephen on Jun 3, 2020 13:46:35 GMT
Piggybacking off the Heath Ledger thread, I've often pondered over what the cinematic landscape would've looked like had James Dean not died so young. His legacy was consecrated by his meteoric rise being cut short in a fiery crash, but if he had inhabited this world a little longer, what roles might he have taken, and whose careers might've been affected? Would Dean's two Best Actor nominations (both posthumous) have even happened had his death not been such a major factor? What parts could he have taken that would've capitalized on his strong streak?
Speculate away!
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Post by finniussnrub on Jun 3, 2020 14:03:06 GMT
Paul Newman might've been in some trouble.
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Post by stephen on Jun 3, 2020 14:07:56 GMT
Paul Newman might've been in some trouble. Definitely the first thing I thought of. Newman's early career feels very Dean-esque; I think Hud is the first time where I can see a major role of Newman's without seeing Dean in the same part. But then, would he have even gotten to do Hud without having done a few other films at that time, which I definitely can see Dean playing?
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Post by finniussnrub on Jun 3, 2020 14:26:24 GMT
Paul Newman might've been in some trouble. Definitely the first thing I thought of. Newman's early career feels very Dean-esque; I think Hud is the first time where I can see a major role of Newman's without seeing Dean in the same part. But then, would he have even gotten to do Hud without having done a few other films at that time, which I definitely can see Dean playing? Side note I think Dean probably would've still gotten his two nods anyways, as both films were Oscar players beyond him to begin with. Did his death give them a greater awards narrative thrust? Probably, however I think they would've instead been interested in rewarding the hot new commodity, similar to Brando's early Oscar success.
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Post by stephen on Jun 3, 2020 14:37:21 GMT
Definitely the first thing I thought of. Newman's early career feels very Dean-esque; I think Hud is the first time where I can see a major role of Newman's without seeing Dean in the same part. But then, would he have even gotten to do Hud without having done a few other films at that time, which I definitely can see Dean playing? Side note I think Dean probably would've still gotten his two nods anyways, as both films were Oscar players beyond him to begin with. Did his death give them a greater awards narrative thrust? Probably, however I think they would've instead been interested in rewarding the hot new commodity, similar to Brando's early Oscar success. Yeah, I figure he still probably would've gotten nominated because Giant did wind up being a big Oscar player (and took home Best Director), but I do wonder if his death might've affected his category placement for that film. It's always been weird to me that he got nominated for Best Actor for that (against his co-star, no less), when if he had gone supporting, he might very well have won out.
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Post by pupdurcs on Jun 3, 2020 14:42:15 GMT
Paul Newman might've been in some trouble. Newman was a direct beneficiary of Dean's death, so yeah, I'd agree. The Left Handed Gun (where Newman played Billy The Kid) was a project intended to star Dean, but Newman was chosen to replace him as he died. Somebody Up There Like Me, where Newman played the boxer Rocky Graziano was also supposed to be played by Dean. Dean's death pretty much made Newman's career happen, so you'd kinda just have to look at Newman's career to see the roles Dean would be playing. Newman might never have become the icon he did had Dean lived.
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Post by pupdurcs on Jun 3, 2020 14:48:31 GMT
Paul Newman might've been in some trouble. Definitely the first thing I thought of. Newman's early career feels very Dean-esque; I think Hud is the first time where I can see a major role of Newman's without seeing Dean in the same part. But then, would he have even gotten to do Hud without having done a few other films at that time, which I definitely can see Dean playing? Newman's early career was Dean-esque, because he was being cast in roles that Dean was supoosed to play. Had Dean not died, Newman may likely have been forced to accept a lot more studio junk where he was badly miscast like The Silver Chalice.
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Post by stephen on Jun 3, 2020 15:03:40 GMT
Paul Newman might've been in some trouble. Newman was a direct beneficiary of Dean's death, so yeah, I'd agree. The Left Handed Gun (where Newman played Billy The Kid) was a project intended to star Dean, but Newman was chosen to replace him as he died. Somebody Up There Like Me, where Newman played the boxer Rocky Graziano was also supposed to be played by Dean. Dean's death pretty much made Newman's career happen, so you'd kinda just have to look at Newman's career to see the roles Dean would be playing. Newman might never have become the icon he did had Dean lived. But the question is, at which point would the Newman/Dean path have split, or do you think Newman would've been relegated as a second-tier talent through most of his career? Look at it this way: if Dean survives, I can see him getting the role of Fast Eddie in The Hustler over Newman. Which means that Newman would never have that iconic role that eventually wins him his Oscar. Newman's talent, I think, would still have borne out and I can see him rising to stardom in the late '60s (especially when Redford hits the scene), but he loses that early momentum to Dean. Furthermore, I wonder if Dean fills the void left by Monty Clift, who is clearly one of his own idols. And with Dean rising, maybe that forces Brando to keep challenging himself.
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Post by finniussnrub on Jun 3, 2020 15:18:07 GMT
Side note I think Dean probably would've still gotten his two nods anyways, as both films were Oscar players beyond him to begin with. Did his death give them a greater awards narrative thrust? Probably, however I think they would've instead been interested in rewarding the hot new commodity, similar to Brando's early Oscar success. Yeah, I figure he still probably would've gotten nominated because Giant did wind up being a big Oscar player (and took home Best Director), but I do wonder if his death might've affected his category placement for that film. It's always been weird to me that he got nominated for Best Actor for that (against his co-star, no less), when if he had gone supporting, he might very well have won out. Although I agree he's supporting, I think that falls into the old view that Supporting was lesser than and beneath "stars". I mean supposedly there was controversy when Clift and Garland were nominated for Judgement At Nuremberg, since, according to the time, "stars" shouldn't be supporting players.
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Post by pacinoyes on Jun 3, 2020 15:20:09 GMT
Montgomery Clift's 4 year absence gave Dean a bigger career - he emerged, became an icon AND died all while Clift was away......Dean then allowed the ascendancy of Newman - a genuine American film GOAT (I usually put him in the top 10). Dean lives he maybe takes from both - Wild River.......The Hustler and he also takes from Steve McQueen in the early- mid-60s I'm sure. This generation of actors is the direct and tragic inverse of the 70s generation who all did at least 20 years of great work and pushed each other - with even the weak link - Hoffman doing 21 years imo. The 50s class - either dies (Dean), lives a living death (Clift) and the sad-King is left to rule over his domain with no rivals , and many wannabes and pretenders (like I said Newman is a top 10 American film actor, and has one more Oscar nod (!) but he was never........ever...... close to Marlon Brando - flame away, don't care!! )
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Post by finniussnrub on Jun 3, 2020 15:23:56 GMT
Newman was a direct beneficiary of Dean's death, so yeah, I'd agree. The Left Handed Gun (where Newman played Billy The Kid) was a project intended to star Dean, but Newman was chosen to replace him as he died. Somebody Up There Like Me, where Newman played the boxer Rocky Graziano was also supposed to be played by Dean. Dean's death pretty much made Newman's career happen, so you'd kinda just have to look at Newman's career to see the roles Dean would be playing. Newman might never have become the icon he did had Dean lived. But the question is, at which point would the Newman/Dean path have split, or do you think Newman would've been relegated as a second-tier talent through most of his career? Look at it this way: if Dean survives, I can see him getting the role of Fast Eddie in The Hustler over Newman. Which means that Newman would never have that iconic role that eventually wins him his Oscar. Newman's talent, I think, would still have borne out and I can see him rising to stardom in the late '60s (especially when Redford hits the scene), but he loses that early momentum to Dean. Furthermore, I wonder if Dean fills the void left by Monty Clift, who is clearly one of his own idols. And with Dean rising, maybe that forces Brando to keep challenging himself. It is interesting to contemplate the Newman factor, as someone as charismatic and talented as he was, it seems like he should've broken out to some degree anyways, though it would've been harder as Dean probably would've become the first choice for those roles that Newman became known for, maybe even Hud (even if he wouldn't have been as well cast as Newman was). I think though it could've been sort of an example like Michael Caine and Terence Stamp. Stamp turned down Alfie leading Caine to become a star through the role, the type of star that Stamp never did become. Stamp has still had a good career and is known, but not to the degree that Caine is. That might've been what would've happened to Newman.
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Post by stephen on Jun 3, 2020 15:36:55 GMT
But the question is, at which point would the Newman/Dean path have split, or do you think Newman would've been relegated as a second-tier talent through most of his career? Look at it this way: if Dean survives, I can see him getting the role of Fast Eddie in The Hustler over Newman. Which means that Newman would never have that iconic role that eventually wins him his Oscar. Newman's talent, I think, would still have borne out and I can see him rising to stardom in the late '60s (especially when Redford hits the scene), but he loses that early momentum to Dean. Furthermore, I wonder if Dean fills the void left by Monty Clift, who is clearly one of his own idols. And with Dean rising, maybe that forces Brando to keep challenging himself. It is interesting to contemplate the Newman factor, as someone as charismatic and talented as he was, it seems like he should've broken out to some degree anyways, though it would've been harder as Dean probably would've become the first choice for those roles that Newman became known for, maybe even Hud (even if he wouldn't have been as well cast as Newman was). I think though it could've been sort of an example like Michael Caine and Terence Stamp. Stamp turned down Alfie leading Caine to become a star through the role, the type of star that Stamp never did become. Stamp has still had a good career and is known, but not to the degree that Caine is. That might've been what would've happened to Newman. Yeah, you can't really keep true talent down. The cream will eventually rise to the top. But Newman might've wound up experiencing such a late bloom that he never becomes the Oscar-winning legend he is if Dean coups much of his early roles from him. One thing I've contemplated is how Dean might've fared in the 1970s. Would Coppola have found a spot for Dean in one of his movies? Or, if Dean somehow falls off in the meantime, what if he is the actor who David Lynch turns to for the role of Frank Booth instead of Dennis Hopper?
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Post by pacinoyes on Jun 3, 2020 15:59:42 GMT
Montgomery Clift's 4 year absence gave Dean a bigger career - he emerged, became an icon AND died all while Clift was away......Dean then allowed the ascendancy of Newman - a genuine American film GOAT (I usually put him in the top 10). Dean lives he maybe takes from both - Wild River.......The Hustler and he also takes from Steve McQueen in the early- mid-60s I'm sure. This generation of actors is the direct and tragic inverse of the 70s generation who all did at least 20 years of great work and pushed each other - with even the weak link - Hoffman doing 21 years imo. The 50s class - either dies (Dean), lives a living death (Clift) and the sad-King is left to rule over his domain with no rivals , and many wannabes and pretenders (like I said Newman is a top 10 American film actor, and has one more Oscar nod (!) but he was never........ever...... close to Marlon Brando - flame away, don't care!! ) Also by the time of '66 had he lived after he took from Clift, Newman, McQueen - he'd have been 35 - perfect for the late 60s mid-life crisis roles ofCassavetes (picture Dean in Faces or better..........Husbands!) or even the great Seconds instead of his Giant rival Rock Hudson......he actually provides a meta-layer here, the eternal teenager unhappy with his adult life....whereas Rock Hudson provides the once golden boy/American dream gone sour which of course works smashingly well like Lancaster does in The Swimmer etc.
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Post by getclutch on Jun 3, 2020 17:45:00 GMT
Yeah, as most on here said, Newman’s career would have been a whole different outcome. Cassavetes/Dean collaboration? Now that I can see work.
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cherry68
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Post by cherry68 on Jun 3, 2020 17:56:50 GMT
I can see him in Splendor in the grass instead of Warren Beatty.
If I have to compare him to a modern actor, I'd say Di Caprio.
I wouldn't have liked Butch Cassidy and the Sundance kid or The sting with Dean instead of Newman though.
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Post by dadsburgers on Jun 3, 2020 18:13:13 GMT
Imagine James Dean as Norman Bates, Clyde Barrow, Sonny Corleone, or Frank Booth? I could see him taking a small part in a Tarantino movie later on, like Walken in Pulp Fiction.
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Post by pupdurcs on Jun 3, 2020 18:19:08 GMT
Newman was a direct beneficiary of Dean's death, so yeah, I'd agree. The Left Handed Gun (where Newman played Billy The Kid) was a project intended to star Dean, but Newman was chosen to replace him as he died. Somebody Up There Like Me, where Newman played the boxer Rocky Graziano was also supposed to be played by Dean. Dean's death pretty much made Newman's career happen, so you'd kinda just have to look at Newman's career to see the roles Dean would be playing. Newman might never have become the icon he did had Dean lived. But the question is, at which point would the Newman/Dean path have split, or do you think Newman would've been relegated as a second-tier talent through most of his career? Look at it this way: if Dean survives, I can see him getting the role of Fast Eddie in The Hustler over Newman. Which means that Newman would never have that iconic role that eventually wins him his Oscar. Newman's talent, I think, would still have borne out and I can see him rising to stardom in the late '60s (especially when Redford hits the scene), but he loses that early momentum to Dean. Furthermore, I wonder if Dean fills the void left by Monty Clift, who is clearly one of his own idols. And with Dean rising, maybe that forces Brando to keep challenging himself. I feel like Dean was a more ambitious actor than Newman, who recognised his range was limited and mostly did his best to stay well within a comfort zone ("studly Americana") after finding out that antiquity period drama like The Silver Chalice made him feel and look foolish. Wheras someone like Brando (or Kirk Douglas) would test their range in anything and everything. Dean strikes me that he'd go more in the Brando/Douglas direction than full-on Newman. Now whether Dean actually had that range that allowed the likes of Brando and Douglas to feel right at home in any genre or period you placed them in is something we'll never find out. But I think Dean would show that kind of ambition to try and play classical parts, non-American roles etc. The type of thing Newman mostly avoided. So Dean would take Newman roles, but probably compete with a wider range of leading men as well. I feel like Dean would want to directly challenge Brando's percieved protean range, so you might see Dean putting on make-up and a silly accent to pretend he was Japanese or something ridiculous like that
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Post by pacinoyes on Jun 3, 2020 18:57:57 GMT
He also might fit in some odd ensemble pics even if the role isn't as big in the late 50s too - I often talk about Anatomy of a Murder (1959) being a pivotal acting movie in American film history - lots of differing styles and acting schools that mesh seamlessly in that classic - and Ben Gazzara at times is doing a method Brando impression (although he's aces).
I could totally picture Dean in that Gazzara role even though it's not the "lead" ..........also Fear Strikes Out (1957) is practically made for him - another psychological pic and Dean's 3 roles each have a psychological component - he liked to have that to play and integrate.
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