atn
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Post by atn on May 11, 2020 7:27:33 GMT
When are we going to start waterboarding liberals? tomorrow unless they start apologizing to me
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Post by pacinoyes on May 11, 2020 13:53:33 GMT
I basically feel that no one will apologize for anything in America any more. Trump never does - that's his schtick - never show weakness........ the "left" which I'll define as "left of Trump" is in a world of denial so they can't apologize anyway - many won't even refer to him as "President Trump" a whole lot of those "not my President" people (yeah, actually he really is). The further left - which I guess is the "Progressive"-AOC/non-capitalist/Socialist fringe (yeah that ain't me, at all) insists they're electable when, you know, they really aren't. If Trump wins an election with the state of the US in this state of disrepair it may be a civil war in some ways (what was worse his winning in 2016 or his winning in THIS 2020 ) and if Biden wins you will have the most disaffected electorate ever and wonder who is actually governing anyway. On the other hand the MAR Politics board is really going to be exciting....
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Post by Pittsnogle_Goggins on May 11, 2020 14:32:15 GMT
So people are calling Biden a rapist now? Cool story
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2020 15:32:29 GMT
This is a good read: Chicago Sun-TimesI don't see how anyone could legitimately think Tara Reade's allegations are credible...
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Post by Joaquim on May 11, 2020 15:39:03 GMT
This is a good read: Chicago Sun-TimesI don't see how anyone could legitimately think Tara Reade's allegations are credible... No, we should believe all women.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2020 15:58:44 GMT
This is a good read: Chicago Sun-TimesI don't see how anyone could legitimately think Tara Reade's allegations are credible... No, we should believe all women. I get that some Democrats have backed themselves into a corner with this claim, but part of protecting victims of sexual assault has always meant verifying their stories (see: "Jackie" at the University of Virginia). In this case, though, there really isn't much of a story to verify.
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atn
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Post by atn on May 11, 2020 16:47:51 GMT
This is a good read: Chicago Sun-TimesI don't see how anyone could legitimately think Tara Reade's allegations are credible... what a disgusting and frankly pathetic article did you really think that’s a “good read?” Between the dismissive nonsense, “oh good a sex scandal,” the lack of any actual treatment of the evidence, and MORE FUCKING RUSSIA BULLSHIT... I don’t think I could’ve possibly concocted a worse piece of writing if I wiped my ass and submitted it to the Chicago Sun Times I hope everyone bothers to look at what you posted and consider a good read You owe me two apologies now. Shameful
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atn
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Post by atn on May 11, 2020 17:03:24 GMT
Some of y’all really have worms in your brain
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cherry68
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Post by cherry68 on May 11, 2020 18:06:54 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2020 19:20:26 GMT
I don't even get to vote for this election but I'm gonna butt in anyway. 1. Voting for the “lesser of two rapists” is not the upstanding moral choice so many people apparently have convinced themselves it is, nor is it “what they have to do”. I respect this line of thinking and I used to agree with it somewhat, but the last few years have forced me to grapple with that question head-on and now I'm not convinced that it's any better than the alternative. Growing up without having it drummed into my ears that my country has the greatest political system in the world and spending my entire adult life watching every single Executive branch election that I've been able to vote for boil down to despairingly bad candidates has taught me that choosing the lesser of two evils is exactly what any election is. Having to choose between "bad" and "slightly less bad" is not some modern degeneration of the system, it's precisely why it exists. You may not find that to be upstanding or moral and that's very fair, but I can't convince myself any differently. You can (and should) be disgusted by Biden, Trump and the dumpster fire that American politics have become, but that disgust is not going to change the fact that there will be a rapist in the White House come January. That is, of course, barring some dramatic scenario where one or both of them fall ill or die— which I would never in a million years suggest might be a good or desirable thing, obviously—, but until that happens that's the outcome that seems the likeliest. If you take moral objection to the proposition of using your right to vote to support a senile rapist, then that's perfectly understandable; laudable, even. You can abstain, you can vote for a third party candidate, you can remove yourself from the equation altogether. That's absolutely your right, I absolutely respect it, and in other times I believed I'd do the same. But again: one of the two senile rapists is still going to be your president. You're still living in a country that either ignores or outright celebrates child rape as long as it's the right god emperor doing it, and you're stuck dealing with the consequences of what those rapist-loving citizens decide. You may not have of your own volition opted into a two-party system that forces you to pick between two unqualified pieces of shit, and you're right to be outraged by that, but your outrage doesn't mean you get to opt out, either. You can stay home because you won't bring yourself to vote for bad people, but those bad people will still be out there enacting social, economic, tax and foreign policies; they'll be picking Supreme Court justices and packing lower courts that will drastically shape your country's legal system; they'll be deciding whether to acknowledge the climate crisis or not. Indignation doesn't get you out of that. With all that in mind, I fail to see what's immoral about assessing the situation and minimizing the damage that you're going to be forced through. You're not necessarily a hypocrite if you vote for a bad candidate. People who actively chose Biden even when they had tens of other viable non-rapist primary alternatives to throw their weight behind absolutely should answer for that and I have no idea what the fuck they were thinking; Biden wasn't the smartest choice even if you were absolutely determined to choose someone belonging to the subcategories "racists", "people with horrendous criminal justice records" and "people without fully functional cognitive capacities". But there's a vast difference between the voters who turned a blind eye to all of his obvious shortcomings in the name of "safe & boring is exactly what this country needs because I want to go back to not having to care about politics =)" and the good ol' bUt WhAt AbOuT eLeCtAbiLitY bullshit, and on the other hand people who hate Biden's guts but also hate the alternative that they've been living under for almost 4 years. If you're not a Trump supporter and you didn't choose Biden as your candidate, what the fuck are you supposed to do now? Go "whoopsie, guess I'll try again in 2024!" and leave everything up to others? You're perfectly within your rights to do that if you want, but people aren't wrong for not going that route. What's become abundantly clear to me watching the repulsive circus that is my country's politics is that the people voting for my representatives are not to be trusted. I'm no longer comfortable with the idea of sitting elections out and relinquishing the decision-making that impacts me directly to people that disgust me. Obviously that leaves a wide open invitation for dishonest concern trolls who have no respect for the left anyway to waltz in with "whaaaattt? but I thought the left cared about sexual abuse =(" and extrapolate from that shitposting into "kek you're just as bad as me". But then again you shouldn't be listening to those people anyway. There are severe issues within the Democratic Party, especially if we're talking about gender movements like MeToo and how promoting a fake-woke brand of #I'mWithHer liberal white feminism that preaches that the cure to oppression under capitalism is more women CEOs eventually results in aberrations such as a senile rapist segregationist winning a presidential nomination and then pathetically positing himself as a bastion of progressive morality to court the female and non-white vote. But the people we should turn to to have that conversation are not the anti-feminist right-wingers to whom all of this is nothing but an intellectual exercise and to whom Biden being a rapist is actually a magnificently opportune gotcha checkmate to jettison nuance and discredit people who will feel the impacts of another GOP administration most directly. Using "if you're a woman voting for Biden you're a hypocrite and you'd be okay with Biden raping you" whether seriously or as a lel is about as repulsive and intellectually dishonest as "well if you're a socialist then why do you own things???". Socialists did not opt into living under capitalist consumerism, just like non-liberal feminists who aren't going "YASSS JOE SLAY QUEEN" did not give cause to his nomination. Once the possibility of having a decent candidate has gone out the door, the only thing that's left to do is to pragmatically assess the options that remain and evaluate which of the two rapists will do less damage in office— which of them will enact the least destructive policies, surround himself with the most acceptable cabinet and do the least damage to the Judiciary. If you're watching several legal protections get rolled back one by one and fearing what the end result of more of that might be, you may not be willing to sit down for another 4 years to maybe get a chance to vote for a good candidate somewhere down the line. Because really, none of this is going to get any better if things continue to go the way they currently are. Having to choose "the lesser of two rapists" as the next president isn't some unforeseen glitch, it's merely a consequence of a political system so hopelessly cynical and so absurdly skewed to the right that its misinformed electorate equates the most moderate of policies with hardcore communism, and 4 more years of a far right administration speedrunning that process and relentlessly normalizing the unacceptable in the eyes of the population is not gonna leave you with a brighter-looking landscape in 2024. (I'm clearly not talking exclusively about the US here; I'm extrapolating from my own current predicament as well.) Cat is dead-on when he says the candidate who personified going high got fucked over (by the DNC and by the electorate, let's not forget) and that right-wing neolibs like Biden are not the way forward, but unless the devastating recession and human loss that will result from this pandemic spark a truly disruptive upheaval in the next few years and shake things up severely, I don't see how anything other than right-wing trash makes its way into the ballot anytime soon, and I don't see how not voting will change that. I am not voting for someone who is (besides being a horrible right winger in general) likely a rapist. Period. It would be a disgusting betrayal of my morals. I'm sure there are plenty of ways to convince yourself it's for the greater good.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2020 19:26:39 GMT
So people are calling Biden a rapist now? Cool story Really disturbing/kinda sociopathic comment.
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Post by Pittsnogle_Goggins on May 11, 2020 19:46:45 GMT
So people are calling Biden a rapist now? Cool story Really disturbing/kinda sociopathic comment. I mean people straight up calling Biden a rapist is disturbing.
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Post by Joaquim on May 11, 2020 20:29:43 GMT
Really disturbing/kinda sociopathic comment. I mean people straight up calling Biden a rapist is disturbing.
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Post by urbanpatrician on May 11, 2020 20:44:41 GMT
42 minute video. Epic account of Joe Biden's endeavors. That kind of stuff is hard to make up, if you know what I mean.
This is really good stuff.
@8-9 minutes........Biden says "I want to fuck you" while having his hands between her legs.
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atn
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Post by atn on May 11, 2020 20:44:56 GMT
Really disturbing/kinda sociopathic comment. I mean people straight up calling Biden a rapist is disturbing. Biden is a rapist
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Good God
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Post by Good God on May 11, 2020 21:09:40 GMT
But again: one of the two senile rapists is still going to be your president. You're still living in a country that either ignores or outright celebrates child rape as long as it's the right god emperor doing it, and you're stuck dealing with the consequences of what those rapist-loving citizens decide. This moral grandstanding is getting tiresome, whether it's from American Democrats or non-American Democrats. Which proven child raping god emperor is being celebrated in America? I'm sorry for being a stickler for due process even if that makes you deem me a child-rapist apologist, but I think we need more than the word of a woman before we can throw a man in prison for 5-10 years, even if that means many rapists get away with it because their crimes can't be proved. You go down that slippery slope and you're going to get woman accusing men of rape and sending them off to prison just for ogling at their legs. And then there is the "greater good" part of your argument where you're blatantly contradicting yourself. You criticize people for voting for Biden in the Primary just because of his "eLeCtAbiLitY" and then propose that people vote for Biden over a non-rapist independent in the General because, that's right, he has more "eLeCtAbiLitY" than any independent. If you think it's fine for Democrats to make moral concessions on who they vote for in the General in the name of pragmatism and for the "greater good", it follows that there is nothing wrong with Democrats making a moral concession and voting for Biden over Sanders in the Primary in the name of pragmatism and for the "greater good" or with Republicans making a moral concession in the name of pragmatism and for their own "greater good" and voting Trump. Even if Trump were a rapist and he was running against a non-rapist Democratic nominee, because that's essentially what you're suggesting when you say Democrats should vote for Biden (who you proclaim a rapist) over a non-rapist independent.
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Zeb31
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Post by Zeb31 on May 11, 2020 23:12:33 GMT
This moral grandstanding is getting tiresome, whether it's from American Democrats or non-American Democrats. Which proven child raping god emperor is being celebrated in America? I'm sorry for being a stickler for due process even if that makes you deem me a child-rapist apologist, but I think we need more than the word of a woman before we can throw a man in prison for 5-10 years, even if that means many rapists get away with it because their crimes can't be proved. You go down that slippery slope and you're going to get woman accusing men of rape and sending them off to prison just for ogling at their legs. First off, thank you very much for writing that, you bring up excellent points and I don't really disagree with anything you've said. You're absolutely right to be a stickler for due process, and I would never suggest we do away with it at all. I definitely wouldn't (and in fact I didn't) argue that anyone go to jail without an actual trial, which is obviously true for both Biden and Trump. I used that language in my post because, at the time that I wrote it, Biden's sexual misconduct was taken as presupposed by everyone who'd posted. It was in fact the very premise of the discussion, so if that was the hypothesis that everyone was working with, it seemed to me that attempting to argue against it or bring the need for due process into the conversation wouldn't have served much of a purpose given what was (and still is) actually being said, especially when the broader point I was trying to make about pragmatic voting in the face of questionable frontrunners doesn't hinge on Biden and Trump's innocence. But you're right that I should've been stricter with my phrasing, yes. This is another point where I should've made myself clearer, because you're right again. When I bring up the electability claim, I'm not criticizing Biden voters for being strategic and taking his chances in the general into consideration; I myself have done that multiple times when assessing who to support in two-round elections. That's not my point at all. Like you said, my entire post is a defense of being pragmatic when voting so as to achieve the best possible outcome given the circumstances, so what I'm finding flaw with here is not the abstract notion of examining electability when choosing a candidate. I might disagree about whether Biden was in fact the most electable in that field, but that's an entirely separate conversation and it doesn't mean that I believe voters should ignore that question altogether. What I meant by that is that part of the arguments that I saw brought up during the primaries under the guise of electability were very unsound, and that the wider issue of electability often got mixed up/confused with debates about policy and the viability of certain platforms in reductive, pernicious ways. I don't see the point in going into detail about the specifics of that at this point because the primaries are over and the Dems' candidate has been chosen, so I'll once again I'll concede that you bring up a valid point and that I was ambiguous in my writing when I should've been more thorough.
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atn
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Post by atn on May 11, 2020 23:17:10 GMT
no please I think we could go for a little more concision actually
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cherry68
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Post by cherry68 on May 11, 2020 23:27:55 GMT
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Post by atn on May 11, 2020 23:31:01 GMT
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Zeb31
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Post by Zeb31 on May 12, 2020 0:06:54 GMT
I am not voting for someone who is (besides being a horrible right winger in general) likely a rapist. Period. It would be a disgusting betrayal of my morals. I'm sure there are plenty of ways to convince yourself it's for the greater good. And again, I understand and respect that. I'm just saying that I used to think exactly the same way as you but now I've been through enough garbage elections with garbage elected representatives tearing away at non-negotiable rights to be okay with the notion of removing myself from the process and leaving the decision-making entirely in the hands of horrible people. I just no longer believe that abstaining can ever work in my interest, and I don't see how it'll work in the interest of any American progressive when recent history shows every candidate who represented genuine change getting fucked over and shorthanded, and when you're getting pushed so far to the right that it's becoming increasingly unlikely for anyone who isn't a right winger to even run. If it's no longer within your reach to not get a horrible right winger as your president, I don't see how it's immoral to be utilitarian about it and make sure that it's the horrible right winger that does the least possible amount of damage. If rape is such a concern for you (and it absolutely should be), you might want to consider that even if Trump and Biden themselves turn out to be equally repugnant, their administrations would produce largely different policies and results, and you should be making sure that sexual assault victims have the least dehumanizing experience possible when it comes to having legal protections and access to proper care, which they need right now and not maybe 4 years from now if they get the chance to vote for a decent candidate then. It would stand to reason that doing as much as the circumstances allow to better the predicament of the groups you claim to care about wouldn't be against your morals, no? You can absolutely continue to critique the political system while recognizing the need to participate in it to diminish the concrete damage in the immediate future. I don't have any sympathy for Biden, and even if I did I wouldn't get to vote for him anyway. I'm just trying to reason with you and respectfully present a different viewpoint that might ultimately turn out beneficial to you and to the causes that you believe in, because it seems to me that we share many of those causes. I legitimately don't get why you're being so hostile about it, but all right. Good luck.
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2020 0:37:58 GMT
I am not voting for someone who is (besides being a horrible right winger in general) likely a rapist. Period. It would be a disgusting betrayal of my morals. I'm sure there are plenty of ways to convince yourself it's for the greater good. And again, I understand and respect that. I'm just saying that I used to think exactly the same way as you but now I've been through enough garbage elections with garbage elected representatives tearing away at non-negotiable rights to be okay with the notion of removing myself from the process and leaving the decision-making entirely in the hands of horrible people. I just no longer believe that abstaining can ever work in my interest, and I don't see how it'll work in the interest of any American progressive when recent history shows every candidate who represented genuine change getting fucked over and shorthanded, and when you're getting pushed so far to the right that it's becoming increasingly unlikely for anyone who isn't a right winger to even run. If it's no longer within your reach to not get a horrible right winger as your president, I don't see how it's immoral to be utilitarian about it and make sure that it's the horrible right winger that does the least possible amount of damage. If rape is such a concern for you (and it absolutely should be), you might want to consider that even if Trump and Biden themselves turn out to be equally repugnant, their administrations would produce largely different policies and results, and you should be making sure that sexual assault victims have the least dehumanizing experience possible when it comes to having legal protections and access to proper care, which they need right now and not maybe 4 years from now if they get the chance to vote for a decent candidate then. It would stand to reason that doing as much as the circumstances allow to better the predicament of the groups you claim to care about wouldn't be against your morals, no? You can absolutely continue to critique the political system while recognizing the need to participate in it to diminish the concrete damage in the immediate future. I don't have any sympathy for Biden, and even if I did I wouldn't get to vote for him anyway. I'm just trying to reason with you and respectfully present a different viewpoint that might ultimately turn out beneficial to you and to the causes that you believe in, because it seems to me that we share many of those causes. I legitimately don't get why you're being so hostile about it, but all right. Good luck. ? Not trying to be hostile, just clear. You're obviously free to do what you like. I just completely disagree with your points as I'm pretty sure I'm just looking at this from an entirely different perspective.
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Post by Ryan_MYeah on May 12, 2020 1:15:53 GMT
Some reasonable responses that are in no way sociopathic here.
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atn
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Post by atn on May 12, 2020 1:19:23 GMT
watching the extreme mental gymnastics people are going through to justify voting for a rapist is entertaining
BUT the point of this thread was to apologize directly to ME
start groveling people
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Post by Ryan_MYeah on May 12, 2020 1:23:09 GMT
watching the extreme mental gymnastics people are going through to justify voting for a rapist is entertaining BUT the point of this thread was to apologize directly to ME start groveling people I’m sorry, I don’t know who you are.
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