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Post by pacinoyes on May 3, 2020 13:49:45 GMT
Just curious who you'd rank as the greatest individual player in each of the big 4 North American team sports - or the ones you follow. Sort of like our GOAT actors list but not a poll. .......or "favorite" if you can't do best. Brady, Jordan, Ruth, Gretzky would be the standard picks I guess.......though Brady you could argue isn't in the top few of his position much less as important to the game as Jim Brown or Lawrence Taylor.......with different positions it's maybe foolish to even try to pick a best. For me Gretzky would be "the" guy though - hockey is my favorite sport anyway - and because he wasn't even that good an athlete tbh - not that fast or good a skater (he was a good skater but not even the best skater on his team), not remotely physically intimidating or with a hard slap or backhand or wrist shot .........he was just smarter in how he played - though he had tremendous vision as a passer. I can't think of another guy who though "thought" his way to such an elevated position in athletics without athleticism being involved as Gretzky. Though even he isn't a lock within his sport........there's Howe, Lemieux, Orr, Messier.
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Post by mikediastavrone96 on May 3, 2020 14:04:40 GMT
NFL - Jerry Rice. NBA - Michael Jordan. MLB - Willie Mays. NHL - Wayne Gretzky.
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Post by dazed on May 3, 2020 14:37:57 GMT
Brady Jordan Ruth Gretzky
The only one I’m unsure about is Ruth and that’s because I don’t know much about baseball.
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Post by theycallmemrfish on May 3, 2020 15:33:06 GMT
NFL: Lawrence Taylor. Every other answer is wrong. NBA: Michael Jordan (though, I don't watch basketball). MLB: Tom Seaver*. NHL: -Wayne Gretzky -Michael Scott (though, I don't watch hockey).
Seaver is my favorite player, but the sport as a whole is way too hard to judge. Unlike something like NFL where you have maybe 5 guys jockeying for the GOAT claim in each position, in baseball you have probably a solid 20 guys per position that one could argue being the GOAT (and not be wrong).
So I went the cowards route and chose my favorite (who was also a Met!)
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Post by countjohn on May 3, 2020 17:07:43 GMT
I'll just start with Hockey because it's the easiest. I'm not even that big of a hockey fan but it's Gretzky and it's not debatable. All time leader in both goals and assists and aren't like 8 of the top ten individual total points seasons all Gretzky?
In football you can't really name a greatest player since the positions are so different, but if you were doing an all time draft you'd take a quarterback first since it's the most important position and Brady is the best quarterback. Jim Brown, LT, and Rice may have been comparatively better at their positions but ultimately Brady has the most value of any player ever.
I used to argue for Wilt over Jordan because up to a certain point Center was the most important position. All the great teams outside of the Bulls had them. But with the "positionless basketball" thing in the 10's I think classic big men might be kind of archaic, or at least not nearly as important as they used to be. Basketball is harder than you might think to rank because the eras are so different. Someone who is great in his own era may have not been that good in another one. Ultimately I think Jordan is the guy where you know he could have been great at any point in the game's history.
Baseball is tough, and you obviously have to split it into pitchers and position players. The issue with Ruth is you just can't say how good he would have been today. He obviously would have DH'd. I'm also not going to call Bonds the best ever due to the steroid thing. I think he should still be in the Hall of Fame for his accomplishments when he was clean in the 90's. But anyone who tries to tell you he would have hit 73 homers and bat 370 if he was clean (as I've heard people do) just isn't being serious. I'll go with Willie Mays. One of the biggest power hitters ever, a career 300 hitter, and the best defensive center fielder ever. He'd also clearly be great in any era. He might be the one guy who a baseball scout could rate a 10/10 in all of the five tools.
For pitchers you don't really have the perfect guy , there seem to be the less dominant longevity type guys and then guys with a great peak who burn out. I think I'll take Greg Maddux. His peak pitching stats are better than Koufax's in a bigger offensive era when all the batters were juicing and he has more longevity. For me it has to be more of a peak value guy, I'm not going to say it's Nolan Ryan or something just because he played forever and racked up career stats.
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Post by mikediastavrone96 on May 3, 2020 17:52:45 GMT
NFL - Jerry Rice. NBA - Michael Jordan. MLB - Willie Mays. NHL - Wayne Gretzky. I might as well expand on this since I have a lot of thoughts on all of them. NFL - For me, it feels damn near impossible to pick a QB as the GOAT because that position undergoes the most volatile changes in the sport given it serves as a proxy coach on the field. If I was going for the guy who was furthest ahead of the curve relative to his time, it's either Sammy Baugh or Otto Graham. If it was the guy who most advanced the position during his playing time, it's Johnny Unitas. If it was the most individual accolades, that's Peyton Manning. If it's the most overall accomplishments, that's Tom Brady. Then you got guys who have great combinations of all that like the aforementioned Unitas or Joe Montana, and guys who are just more talented than anyone else but may not have been in the best circumstances like Dan Marino or Aaron Rodgers. Bottom line, QB is the weirdest position for me to judge so I looked to the next best positions so I was looking at Jim Brown, Walter Payton, Jerry Rice, and Lawrence Taylor and ultimately went with Rice because he both has the greatest combination of peak + longevity but also positionally provides more value than a running back or outside linebacker. NBA - LeBron has made an incredible push for the GOAT, especially beating the 73-win Warriors, but I still have to go with Jordan. Dominated the league without a reliable big man on his squad at a time where a significant interior presence was still the most valuable part of the game, has analytics that are off-the-charts for the era, elevated his game during the postseason, was willing and able to lend himself to Phil Jackson's system despite already being the most dominant individual player in basketball (my biggest knock on LeBron is his need to dominate the ball limits the ceiling of his teammates' performance) and left such a huge impact on the sport that the league changed the rules after his retirement to open up the perimeter game in hopes of maintaining its audience. Maybe my favorite stat is after the Bulls started 0-3 during the 1990-91 season, the Bulls with Jordan never lost 3 straight again. 500 regular season games, 126 playoff games, no 3-game losing streaks. Unbelievable. MLB - Babe Ruth feels like he should be the obvious pick here, but being in a pre-integrated game leaves me wondering how good he would have been with stronger competition. I'm aware he played exhibition games against black and Latino players where he was still dominant and of course the time he can't help the time he played in but it's still a question I have nonetheless. And considering Willie Mays is already right there as probably the greatest all-around player ever, I don't feel bad putting him over Ruth. NHL - Gordie Howe may be Mr. Hockey and Mario Lemieux may have talent unlike anything we had ever seen, but Wayne Gretzky is the greatest hockey player to ever exist and it honestly is not even that close. His vision on the ice made him the most dominant offensive player the game has ever seen, not by mere inches but by orders of magnitude.
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Post by countjohn on May 3, 2020 18:45:49 GMT
NFL - Jerry Rice. NBA - Michael Jordan. MLB - Willie Mays. NHL - Wayne Gretzky. MLB - Babe Ruth feels like he should be the obvious pick here, but being in a pre-integrated game leaves me wondering how good he would have been with stronger competition. I'm aware he played exhibition games against black and Latino players where he was still dominant and of course the time he can't help the time he played in but it's still a question I have nonetheless. And considering Willie Mays is already right there as probably the greatest all-around player ever, I don't feel bad putting him over Ruth. Some people do discount Ruth too quick. Baseball has changed but not nearly as much as football or basketball. I also don't think he's necessarily any more out of shape than David Ortiz for instance. I think if he played now he'd be a DH who had enormous power. Which is one of the things that gives Mays an advantage, he's also maybe the greatest fielding player ever in addition to his offensive prowess. He's pretty much everything you could want from a baseball player. I also think other old time players like Gehrig, Rogers Hornsby, Ted Williams, or Mantle might hold up better than Ruth in other eras because they were more athletic. If Mantle hadn't had the injuries and had kept it together mentally we might be calling him the GOAT now and not Ruth or anybody else. His peak was insane.
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Post by ibbi on May 3, 2020 20:43:36 GMT
I don't watch baseball because I don't like falling asleep if I'm not in bed, though it makes for good movies and video games. I only really get to watch Hockey during the Olympics, I used to like Messier and Gretzky once upon a time. Who didn't, am I right?
As for the other two... I mean NBA is so obvious it doesn't even warrant saying. There was sooooooooooooo many great players in the 90s who just got nothing, and are so widely forgotten in spite of how good they were. Yes, he won nothing until he got the right coach and team around him, but how did they do when he went away? He had a 7-2 record against 60+ win teams in the playoffs (for a comparison Lebron is 3-4 against such teams), he won scoring leader and defensive player of the year in the same god damn season, number 1 all time rebounding shooting guard, number 1 all time blocking guard, number 3 I think all time steals. The scoring stuff everyone knows, the way he developed the jumpers as he got older, the fact his stats went through the roof in the playoffs, the 25 odd games won in the last 30 seconds, number 1 all time buzzer beaters, and all that coupled with the fact he barely missed any games in his career despite being as physical as he was.
In the NFL it's ridiculous to make comparisons between positions, but I will say that for me trying to name any player that played the majority of their career on offense in the last 25 years as the greatest of all time is a joke. D's today deserve more respect than ever before, and the O's deserve less (this sort of applies to the NBA as well which is about the only slight you can make against MJ, but he's so good in every department it doesn't matter). To me it's Brown, Rice, and Montana as the three greatest, though the respect Dan Marino deserves playing in pretty mediocre teams putting up numbers that would look impressive even today against defenses that could get away with what they could in those days is far less than he gets.
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urbanpatrician
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Post by urbanpatrician on May 3, 2020 21:30:54 GMT
Brady Jordan
I don't watch hockey, and know very little about professional baseball without doing research.
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Post by Mattsby on May 3, 2020 22:33:27 GMT
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Post by pacinoyes on Feb 8, 2021 9:55:22 GMT
Just curious who you'd rank as the greatest individual player in each of the big 4 North American team sports - or the ones you follow. Sort of like our GOAT actors list but not a poll. .......or "favorite" if you can't do best. Brady, Jordan, Ruth, Gretzky would be the standard picks I guess.......though Brady you could argue isn't in the top few of his position much less as important to the game as Jim Brown or Lawrence Taylor.......with different positions it's maybe foolish to even try to pick a best. For me Gretzky would be "the" guy though - hockey is my favorite sport anyway - and because he wasn't even that good an athlete tbh - not that fast or good a skater (he was a good skater but not even the best skater on his team), not remotely physically intimidating or with a hard slap or backhand or wrist shot .........he was just smarter in how he played - though he had tremendous vision as a passer. I can't think of another guy who though "thought" his way to such an elevated position in athletics without athleticism being involved as Gretzky. Though even he isn't a lock within his sport........there's Howe, Lemieux, Orr, Messier. Figured it's a good time to bump the thread - less than a year since this was created and Brady/LeBron win again - Brady's 2nd team, LeBron's 3rd - .....anybody think these 2 increased their status now? Both of them did? Or nothing has changed for you?
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Post by ibbi on Feb 8, 2021 14:03:04 GMT
Just curious who you'd rank as the greatest individual player in each of the big 4 North American team sports - or the ones you follow. Sort of like our GOAT actors list but not a poll. .......or "favorite" if you can't do best. Brady, Jordan, Ruth, Gretzky would be the standard picks I guess.......though Brady you could argue isn't in the top few of his position much less as important to the game as Jim Brown or Lawrence Taylor.......with different positions it's maybe foolish to even try to pick a best. For me Gretzky would be "the" guy though - hockey is my favorite sport anyway - and because he wasn't even that good an athlete tbh - not that fast or good a skater (he was a good skater but not even the best skater on his team), not remotely physically intimidating or with a hard slap or backhand or wrist shot .........he was just smarter in how he played - though he had tremendous vision as a passer. I can't think of another guy who though "thought" his way to such an elevated position in athletics without athleticism being involved as Gretzky. Though even he isn't a lock within his sport........there's Howe, Lemieux, Orr, Messier. Figured it's a good time to bump the thread - less than a year since this was created and Brady/LeBron win again - Brady's 2nd team, LeBron's 3rd - .....anybody think these 2 increased their status now? Both of them did? Or nothing has changed for you? Honestly, the hoopla around Brady would be sincerely funny to me if stupidity did not grind my god damn gears so. What did he do this year that contributed to his greatness other than the admittedly mighty impressive feat of being fit and healthy at his age? He played under basically no pressure, I don't think he had any meaningful moments where he beat tight coverage. He basically did the basic requirements of his job. Congratulations to him for not throwing 30 interceptions. How good did he look last year playing on a mediocre team? That was a moment for greatness to come shining through. It did not. Lebron is definitely more impressive. Like Brady he too went from the shit conference to the good conference. Unlike Brady the good conference and the shit conference weren't switching places. Though I didn't think much of that playoff run (shorthanded Blazers, exhausted Nuggets) he lead that team admirably, playing in a sport where you as an individual can have far more influence over the results than you can in the NFL that means a lot more. The way they turned the Rockets series around was great. I just go back to my previous post in this thread. In basically all sports other than tennis, offensive and primarily offense minded players are just so much less impressive to me these days, and defensive ones that much more. If Lebron was playing some godly kind of D I think that'd add more to his legacy. TL;DR - Brady - LMAO. Lebron - Definitely added to the legacy some, but I think we've reached a point in history where maybe Michael Jordan's feats have somehow become forgotten/underrated.
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Post by mikediastavrone96 on Feb 8, 2021 15:44:07 GMT
LeBron - His complete offensive game still being as good as it's ever been and his defensive intensity going up a notch in L.A. keeping him as the best player on the planet at the age of 36 puts him closer to Jordan. While I still give Jordan the edge for his sheer league-wide dominance and non-stop motor on both ends of the floor, I'm savoring the time we still have with LeBron making his GOAT case.
As for Brady, that debate is over. I've said my piece on QBs across history and I stand by what I said (effectively pulling myself out of QB GOAT talk) but on its face there's no argument against Brady. 7 rings (more than any team), 5 Super Bowl MVPs (as many MVPs as anyone besides him has rings), 3 MVPs (unlike Peyton all of them are deserved). Been a top 5 QB longer than most QB's entire careers. Never had a losing season, played a regular season's worth of championship games, and won as many playoff games since turning 37 as Montana had in his entire career. He won his first year without Belichick. Did the Bucs have a great receiving core and a top 5 defense? Yes, which was also the case last year and yet a cataclysmic Jameis Winston season made that a sub-.500 team. Brady doesn't have calamities, he doesn't waste opportunities. Shit, Brady gift wraps Rodgers, the most talented QB maybe ever, 3 INTs in an NFC title game and Rodgers does nothing with it. That doesn't happen with Brady teams. "Oh, but can he win without a great defense?" Idk, how many QBs led dynasties without awesome defenses? Not Montana, not Bradshaw, certainly not Bart Starr. And none of those guys had their dynasties extend into a second decade, let alone break off as their own dynasty in the third. The degree of difficulty to do what Brady has done is already so asinine we need to pick apart the few things he hasn't done, meanwhile pray at Joe Montana's altar like he didn't spend the bulk of his winning career with Bill Walsh starting a legendary offensive system almost every team still runs some version of 40 years later. Not to mention throwing to Jerry Rice and having Ronnie Lott haunt opposing QBs. Just like football for the past 20 years, Brady wins. I don't like it either, but it's over.
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Post by Viced on Feb 8, 2021 18:29:20 GMT
Honestly, the hoopla around Brady would be sincerely funny to me if stupidity did not grind my god damn gears so. What did he do this year that contributed to his greatness other than the admittedly mighty impressive feat of being fit and healthy at his age? He played under basically no pressure, I don't think he had any meaningful moments where he beat tight coverage. He basically did the basic requirements of his job. Congratulations to him for not throwing 30 interceptions. How good did he look last year playing on a mediocre team? That was a moment for greatness to come shining through. It did not. While I'm not quite on your level of Brady writing off... it's a little weird in the GOAT debate how much stock is put into Super Bowl rings like they're individual accomplishments (compared to the NBA where one player's impact is usually much greater on a championship run). Especially when the list of things that've bailed him out in those seven championships is MUCH longer than the great things he's done. In terms of actual talent and career consistency in the past 20ish years, Rodgers is miles above Brady. Imagine Rodgers playing for the Bucs last night with that o-line, those receivers, and that defense? They probably would've won by 40+. Kirk fucking Cousins could've led the Bucs to an easy win last night. Would also comfortably put Peyton Manning over Brady too... and maybe Brees. And I'm only talking about players that I've actually watched in my own lifetime here.
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Post by countjohn on Feb 8, 2021 19:29:16 GMT
I thought Brady was the GOAT before so he still is.
LeBron is not Jordan, and I don't know why his fanbase is so hypersensitive about people saying that and acts like you're saying he sucks if you think he's "just" a top 2-5 player of all time. And the argument for Jordan is not "OMG rings". He's got 10 effing scoring titles. For reference, LeBron has one. Jordan's also probably the best perimeter defender of all time. There are some things LeBron does better like rebounding and playmaking and his longevity is absurd, a bit like Brady's. But if you're starting a team you'd be crazy not to take MJ first.
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urbanpatrician
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Post by urbanpatrician on Feb 8, 2021 20:44:14 GMT
Is Brady the most talented QB of all time? Probably not. But there's more than just talent, obvi.
Manning had all the talent, but only managed 2 Super Bowls. Which isn't bad, but if you'll consider how many missed opportunities he had it kind of puts the argument in Brady's favor for being the GOAT.
Brady is probably the best at taking advantage of the talent around him. In New England, he had a built in system and took advantage of it. In Tampa Bay, he had a spanking up and coming team with shiny new toys all around him. And he wins a Super Bowl.
Did Manning have all that talent around him? Hell yeah. Awesome receivers, awesome offensive line, much better running backs than Brady ever had. Yet he still couldn't take advantage of them except for that one year in 2006. In 2015, lots of Quarterbacks could've won opposite that all-time great defense in Denver.
Brett Favre is one of the best passers I've ever seen, but he takes too many chances and is a turnover machine - that hampered his ability to win a 2nd Super Bowl when that star-studded team in 1996 and 1997 declined. He sustained longtime success, but couldn't quite get over the hump in his later years. Same applies to Marino. In his early years he had a star-studded team, but when that declined.... so did his Super Bowl trips. He didn't make one in his latter portion of his career.
As for basketball, anyone who says Lebron is Jordan needs to meet my fist, and my deep fry. Lebron goes relatively unchallenged against a painfully weak Eastern conference for the majority of his career, and plays sometimes only 1 really strong opponent the entire playoffs and has a losing record of 3-7 or something against them.
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Post by ibbi on Feb 8, 2021 22:41:50 GMT
As for Brady, that debate is over. I've said my piece on QBs across history and I stand by what I said (effectively pulling myself out of QB GOAT talk) but on its face there's no argument against Brady. 7 rings (more than any team), 5 Super Bowl MVPs (as many MVPs as anyone besides him has rings), 3 MVPs (unlike Peyton all of them are deserved). Been a top 5 QB longer than most QB's entire careers. Never had a losing season, played a regular season's worth of championship games, and won as many playoff games since turning 37 as Montana had in his entire career. He won his first year without Belichick. Did the Bucs have a great receiving core and a top 5 defense? Yes, which was also the case last year and yet a cataclysmic Jameis Winston season made that a sub-.500 team. Brady doesn't have calamities, he doesn't waste opportunities. Shit, Brady gift wraps Rodgers, the most talented QB maybe ever, 3 INTs in an NFC title game and Rodgers does nothing with it. That doesn't happen with Brady teams. "Oh, but can he win without a great defense?" Idk, how many QBs led dynasties without awesome defenses? Not Montana, not Bradshaw, certainly not Bart Starr. And none of those guys had their dynasties extend into a second decade, let alone break off as their own dynasty in the third. The degree of difficulty to do what Brady has done is already so asinine we need to pick apart the few things he hasn't done, meanwhile pray at Joe Montana's altar like he didn't spend the bulk of his winning career with Bill Walsh starting a legendary offensive system almost every team still runs some version of 40 years later. Not to mention throwing to Jerry Rice and having Ronnie Lott haunt opposing QBs. Just like football for the past 20 years, Brady wins. I don't like it either, but it's over. OMG GUYS, THEY GOT MIKE TOO! MIKE! Tom Brady doesn't have calamities or waste opportunities?! I can't believe I'm going to get into this with a Ravens fan! 2009 Wild Card Weekend?! That wasn't a calamity?! What about 2 years later in the championship game WHERE JOE FLACCO PUTS THE BALL IN LEE EVANS HANDS IN THE END ZONE, STERLING MOORE KNOCKS IT OUT, AND BILLY CUNDIFF MISSES THE CHIP SHOT FIELD GOAL? TOM BRADY GARGLED BALLS IN THAT GAME. What about the rematch the next year where King Joe outduelled him to the tune of 21-0 in the second half?? He turned the ball over three god damn times in the second half of the championship game! The highlight of the whole game was the infamous studs up play, that idiots focused on because his studs were up, not because he slid IN BOUNDS in the redzone and they have to use their final timeout and settle for a field goal. A historically bad choke that is on nobody but him. AND THAT'S JUST THE RAVENS! When he fumbles the ball having driven into the Giants half of the field at the end of the first half with a timeout left in his pocket in SB42 in a game they end up losing by 3 points! That's all on him too! What about the second Giants Super Bowl where he needs to drive 80 yards at the end of the game when they trail by 4, when if he HADN'T GIVEN UP A SAFETY ON HIS FIRST PLAY OF THE GAME THEY'D HAVE LIKELY BEEN DOWN BY 2 AND ALL THEY'D HAVE NEEDED WAS A TOM-BRADY-SPECIAL DRIVE INTO FIELD GOAL RANGE TO WIN THE GAME?! What about in 2010 where he goes 11 games without throwing an interception AND THEN THROWS ONE ON HIS VERY FIRST DRIVE OF THE PLAYOFFS AND IS ONE AND DONE AGAINST A JETS TEAM THEY BEAT 45-3 A FEW WEEKS EARLIER ON MONDAY NIGHT FOOTBALL?! And like you pointed out yourself, 3 picks and 3 points in the second half against the Packers! If Peyton Manning had ever done anything like that we'd never have heard the end of it. It's less "Oh, but can he win without a great defense?" and it's more... Is the defense not doing all of the work again and again and again? Leaving aside the spying of which they were convicted that throws a giant fucking WTF over their first three championships, the defense in that first Super Bowl held the greatest show on turf to 17 points! In the third Super Bowl what if Fat Andy runs a hurry up offense at the end of the game?! His coaching, the Eagles offense and the Pats D determined that game, not Brady. In between those first three championships was, of course, the season where they let him throw the ball 600 times, and they didn't even make the playoffs. Once that defense got old and the team was turned over to him he had that god tier 2007 season which came crashing to a halt when the last two games of the season were his worst two games of the season. Remember "We're only going to score 17 points?" NO, BITCH! YOU'RE ONLY GOING TO SCORE 14! What about the 06 Championship game where he had the 15 point half time lead and couldn't maintain his lead when Peyton Manning and flag gate took it to the defense?! CIRCLE BACK TO THE RAVENS! What about the 2014 Divisional Round where Joe Flacco was kicking his ass again until that final fucking drive where they've gotten like 3/4 first downs including converting that clutch as fuck 4th down, they're beautifully taking time off the clock AND THEN THEY JUST RANDOMLY GO FOR THE FUCKING END ZONE?! WHAT WERE THEY THINKING?! WHY DO YOU WANT TO GIVE THEM THE BALL BACK WITH TIME ON THE CLOCK EVEN IF YOU SCORE, BUT OF COURSE HE GETS PICKED OFF AND BRADY'S DEFENSE SAVES HIS ASS ONCE AGAIN! Speaking of boneheaded calls, what about whatever the fuck the Seahawks were doing on the 1 yard line?! If they just run it in and Malcolm Butler doesn't win the Super Bowl is Tom Brady less GOAT? AND ATLANTA! OH, ATLANTA! IF MATT RYAN COULD RUN FUCKING CLOCK TO KILL THE GAME AND TIRE THE OPPOSING DEFENSE INSTEAD OF JUST MAHOMES'ING IT? IF THE PATRIOTS D HADN'T COME UP WITH MULTIPLE MIRACLE PLAYS IN THE FOURTH QUARTER BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT PHYSICALLY SPENT TO GIFT THEIR OFFENSE ALL THOSE OPPORTUNITIES? IF MATT RYAN (MVP OF THE LEAGUE) DIDN'T COUGH UP FUMBLES OR TAKE MASSIVE SACKS WHEN IN FIELD GOAL RANGE? AND IF THAT FALCON DEFENSE THAT KEPT BRADY IN THEIR POCKET THE WHOLE GAME HADN'T GIVEN UP ALL THOSE FLAGS TO EXTEND DRIVES WHEN HE COULDN'T AND GASSED THEMSELVES OUT? Would the Patriot offense have even been in a position to do what they did? Literally the Falcons had to fall to pieces and their D needed to make multiple amazing plays AND rely on penalties. Yes, it is admirable that he took his opportunities, but unlike say Rodgers two weeks ago by the time he needed to convert his opportunities he was no longer being met with any resistance. Anyway, I apologize for my slightly less eloquent Moby Dick of a post, but... Well, I guess I am the Ahab of this story To the last I grapple with thee, Tom Brady. At least I didn't have anything in here about whaling.
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Post by countjohn on Feb 8, 2021 23:28:54 GMT
I don't think anyone's arguing Brady's never had a bad playoff game. When you play the amount he has by sheer law of averages it's going to happen. Jordan had bad playoff games, great pitchers like Kershaw and Roger Clemens got bombed in the playoffs. There are quarterbacks (Marino, Young, Favre, Peyton) who had higher peaks, but Brady is going to retire with 7 rings and as the all time TD pass and yardage leader with Brees likely retiring and dropping out of the race. Calling anyone else the GOAT just feels silly, there's not an argument. I'm the biggest Peyton fan in the world and still thought he was the GOAT upon his retirement but Brady's surpassed him in these past five years with his staggering longevity. He's better in his 40's than he was at 25 and not that far off from where he was on the front end of his 30's.
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Post by ibbi on Feb 9, 2021 0:10:27 GMT
He's better in his 40's than he was at 25 and not that far off from where he was on the front end of his 30's. I know he wasn’t especially good at 25, but come on he was not great the last couple of years in New England after Nicky 6 outplayed him in the Super Bowl. Humbled, perhaps. This Bucs team shined him up like a new penny. This is the kind of talk I can’t wrap my head around. Of course his longevity is fantastic, but personally I don’t equate greatness with fitness. That’s hard work, sure, and a lot of luck, and the championships have to do with being on really good, really well coached teams for a really long time. Again, more often than not he was not decisive factor (positively) when it came to crunch time in close games. And yes he will retire with all the passing records, but it took the dude two years longer to catch Peyton’s numbers. I don’t find that more impressive. I guess I really just don’t see what’s silly about suggesting he isn’t the greatest ever. I mean numerous times in this thread different people have talked about how other guys are better, more talented players than he is. What the hell else is there to it than that? In an entirely team driven game that’s what counts. Not how much your team has won. People haven’t argued for Bill Russell in how long?
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urbanpatrician
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Post by urbanpatrician on Feb 9, 2021 0:43:43 GMT
He's better in his 40's than he was at 25 and not that far off from where he was on the front end of his 30's. I know he wasn’t especially good at 25, but come on he was not great the last couple of years in New England after Nicky 6 outplayed him in the Super Bowl. Humbled, perhaps. This Bucs team shined him up like a new penny. This is the kind of talk I can’t wrap my head around. Of course his longevity is fantastic, but personally I don’t equate greatness with fitness. That’s hard work, sure, and a lot of luck, and the championships have to do with being on really good, really well coached teams for a really long time. Again, more often than not he was not decisive factor (positively) when it came to crunch time in close games. And yes he will retire with all the passing records, but it took the dude two years longer to catch Peyton’s numbers. I don’t find that more impressive. I guess I really just don’t see what’s silly about suggesting he isn’t the greatest ever. I mean numerous times in this thread different people have talked about how other guys are better, more talented players than he is. What the hell else is there to it than that? In an entirely team driven game that’s what counts. Not how much your team has won. People haven’t argued for Bill Russell in how long? I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest he's not the GOAT. He's not my FAVORITE player, let's just put it that way. I'm more partial to Marino and Favre. Marino is a better passer than Brady - and while he had a legendary coach, Shula's peak was '64-'85, so he did catch Shula at the tail end of his greatness. Brady caught Belichick right at his peak, and those 6 Super Bowl rings were probably more Belichick than Brady. Brady's last 2 Super Bowls he barely did anything - his defense forced 0 TDs in 8 quarters.... that's some GOAT-tier help that he got. Favre is such a monster passer, but uber-Favre fans in Green Bay seem to remember him mostly from 95-97. Such an awesome peak. Where Brady wrote another chapter in the mid-to-late-2010s. Again, not arguing that Brady is the GOAT... I'm just saying there are certain other factors to consider. If you think best offense = best Quarterback.... that's another factor to consider, which then..... Manning and Marino is definitely ahead of Brady. Take them out of the offense and their team is barely .500. If you take Brady out, of course the team won't look nearly the same, but I think he's a bit more replaceable as long as you give Belichick 1 or 2 more years to reexperiment with the Quarterback he needs. And Bill Russell went relatively unchallenged in the 60s. There was no question he was winning every single year. Wilt gave him some fight sometimes, but his team wasn't good enough to beat the rest of Russell's team. Not trying to say Brady and Russell are comparable, but I just think that's one reason why Russell swept all those championships. Only in the 80s can you begin to say the NBA can be taken seriously enough. That was when the rest of the competition was good enough to unseat the top teams.
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Post by Joaquim on Feb 9, 2021 5:19:03 GMT
As for Brady, that debate is over. I've said my piece on QBs across history and I stand by what I said (effectively pulling myself out of QB GOAT talk) but on its face there's no argument against Brady. 7 rings (more than any team), 5 Super Bowl MVPs (as many MVPs as anyone besides him has rings), 3 MVPs (unlike Peyton all of them are deserved). Been a top 5 QB longer than most QB's entire careers. Never had a losing season, played a regular season's worth of championship games, and won as many playoff games since turning 37 as Montana had in his entire career. He won his first year without Belichick. Did the Bucs have a great receiving core and a top 5 defense? Yes, which was also the case last year and yet a cataclysmic Jameis Winston season made that a sub-.500 team. Brady doesn't have calamities, he doesn't waste opportunities. Shit, Brady gift wraps Rodgers, the most talented QB maybe ever, 3 INTs in an NFC title game and Rodgers does nothing with it. That doesn't happen with Brady teams. "Oh, but can he win without a great defense?" Idk, how many QBs led dynasties without awesome defenses? Not Montana, not Bradshaw, certainly not Bart Starr. And none of those guys had their dynasties extend into a second decade, let alone break off as their own dynasty in the third. The degree of difficulty to do what Brady has done is already so asinine we need to pick apart the few things he hasn't done, meanwhile pray at Joe Montana's altar like he didn't spend the bulk of his winning career with Bill Walsh starting a legendary offensive system almost every team still runs some version of 40 years later. Not to mention throwing to Jerry Rice and having Ronnie Lott haunt opposing QBs. Just like football for the past 20 years, Brady wins. I don't like it either, but it's over. OMG GUYS, THEY GOT MIKE TOO! MIKE! Tom Brady doesn't have calamities or waste opportunities?! I can't believe I'm going to get into this with a Ravens fan! 2009 Wild Card Weekend?! That wasn't a calamity?! What about 2 years later in the championship game WHERE JOE FLACCO PUTS THE BALL IN LEE EVANS HANDS IN THE END ZONE, STERLING MOORE KNOCKS IT OUT, AND BILLY CUNDIFF MISSES THE CHIP SHOT FIELD GOAL? TOM BRADY GARGLED BALLS IN THAT GAME. What about the rematch the next year where King Joe outduelled him to the tune of 21-0 in the second half?? He turned the ball over three god damn times in the second half of the championship game! The highlight of the whole game was the infamous studs up play, that idiots focused on because his studs were up, not because he slid IN BOUNDS in the redzone and they have to use their final timeout and settle for a field goal. A historically bad choke that is on nobody but him. AND THAT'S JUST THE RAVENS! When he fumbles the ball having driven into the Giants half of the field at the end of the first half with a timeout left in his pocket in SB42 in a game they end up losing by 3 points! That's all on him too! What about the second Giants Super Bowl where he needs to drive 80 yards at the end of the game when they trail by 4, when if he HADN'T GIVEN UP A SAFETY ON HIS FIRST PLAY OF THE GAME THEY'D HAVE LIKELY BEEN DOWN BY 2 AND ALL THEY'D HAVE NEEDED WAS A TOM-BRADY-SPECIAL DRIVE INTO FIELD GOAL RANGE TO WIN THE GAME?! What about in 2010 where he goes 11 games without throwing an interception AND THEN THROWS ONE ON HIS VERY FIRST DRIVE OF THE PLAYOFFS AND IS ONE AND DONE AGAINST A JETS TEAM THEY BEAT 45-3 A FEW WEEKS EARLIER ON MONDAY NIGHT FOOTBALL?! And like you pointed out yourself, 3 picks and 3 points in the second half against the Packers! If Peyton Manning had ever done anything like that we'd never have heard the end of it. It's less "Oh, but can he win without a great defense?" and it's more... Is the defense not doing all of the work again and again and again? Leaving aside the spying of which they were convicted that throws a giant fucking WTF over their first three championships, the defense in that first Super Bowl held the greatest show on turf to 17 points! In the third Super Bowl what if Fat Andy runs a hurry up offense at the end of the game?! His coaching, the Eagles offense and the Pats D determined that game, not Brady. In between those first three championships was, of course, the season where they let him throw the ball 600 times, and they didn't even make the playoffs. Once that defense got old and the team was turned over to him he had that god tier 2007 season which came crashing to a halt when the last two games of the season were his worst two games of the season. Remember "We're only going to score 17 points?" NO, BITCH! YOU'RE ONLY GOING TO SCORE 14! What about the 06 Championship game where he had the 15 point half time lead and couldn't maintain his lead when Peyton Manning and flag gate took it to the defense?! CIRCLE BACK TO THE RAVENS! What about the 2014 Divisional Round where Joe Flacco was kicking his ass again until that final fucking drive where they've gotten like 3/4 first downs including converting that clutch as fuck 4th down, they're beautifully taking time off the clock AND THEN THEY JUST RANDOMLY GO FOR THE FUCKING END ZONE?! WHAT WERE THEY THINKING?! WHY DO YOU WANT TO GIVE THEM THE BALL BACK WITH TIME ON THE CLOCK EVEN IF YOU SCORE, BUT OF COURSE HE GETS PICKED OFF AND BRADY'S DEFENSE SAVES HIS ASS ONCE AGAIN! Speaking of boneheaded calls, what about whatever the fuck the Seahawks were doing on the 1 yard line?! If they just run it in and Malcolm Butler doesn't win the Super Bowl is Tom Brady less GOAT? AND ATLANTA! OH, ATLANTA! IF MATT RYAN COULD RUN FUCKING CLOCK TO KILL THE GAME AND TIRE THE OPPOSING DEFENSE INSTEAD OF JUST MAHOMES'ING IT? IF THE PATRIOTS D HADN'T COME UP WITH MULTIPLE MIRACLE PLAYS IN THE FOURTH QUARTER BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT PHYSICALLY SPENT TO GIFT THEIR OFFENSE ALL THOSE OPPORTUNITIES? IF MATT RYAN (MVP OF THE LEAGUE) DIDN'T COUGH UP FUMBLES OR TAKE MASSIVE SACKS WHEN IN FIELD GOAL RANGE? AND IF THAT FALCON DEFENSE THAT KEPT BRADY IN THEIR POCKET THE WHOLE GAME HADN'T GIVEN UP ALL THOSE FLAGS TO EXTEND DRIVES WHEN HE COULDN'T AND GASSED THEMSELVES OUT? Would the Patriot offense have even been in a position to do what they did? Literally the Falcons had to fall to pieces and their D needed to make multiple amazing plays AND rely on penalties. Yes, it is admirable that he took his opportunities, but unlike say Rodgers two weeks ago by the time he needed to convert his opportunities he was no longer being met with any resistance. Anyway, I apologize for my slightly less eloquent Moby Dick of a post, but... Well, I guess I am the Ahab of this story To the last I grapple with thee, Tom Brady. At least I didn't have anything in here about whaling. Where did Tom Brady touch (kiss?) you?
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Post by The_Cake_of_Roth on Feb 9, 2021 8:13:16 GMT
DAN MARINO 4 LYFE
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Post by mikediastavrone96 on Feb 9, 2021 13:29:48 GMT
OMG GUYS, THEY GOT MIKE TOO! MIKE! Tom Brady doesn't have calamities or waste opportunities?! I can't believe I'm going to get into this with a Ravens fan! 2009 Wild Card Weekend?! That wasn't a calamity?! What about 2 years later in the championship game WHERE JOE FLACCO PUTS THE BALL IN LEE EVANS HANDS IN THE END ZONE, STERLING MOORE KNOCKS IT OUT, AND BILLY CUNDIFF MISSES THE CHIP SHOT FIELD GOAL? TOM BRADY GARGLED BALLS IN THAT GAME. What about the rematch the next year where King Joe outduelled him to the tune of 21-0 in the second half?? He turned the ball over three god damn times in the second half of the championship game! The highlight of the whole game was the infamous studs up play, that idiots focused on because his studs were up, not because he slid IN BOUNDS in the redzone and they have to use their final timeout and settle for a field goal. A historically bad choke that is on nobody but him. AND THAT'S JUST THE RAVENS! When he fumbles the ball having driven into the Giants half of the field at the end of the first half with a timeout left in his pocket in SB42 in a game they end up losing by 3 points! That's all on him too! What about the second Giants Super Bowl where he needs to drive 80 yards at the end of the game when they trail by 4, when if he HADN'T GIVEN UP A SAFETY ON HIS FIRST PLAY OF THE GAME THEY'D HAVE LIKELY BEEN DOWN BY 2 AND ALL THEY'D HAVE NEEDED WAS A TOM-BRADY-SPECIAL DRIVE INTO FIELD GOAL RANGE TO WIN THE GAME?! What about in 2010 where he goes 11 games without throwing an interception AND THEN THROWS ONE ON HIS VERY FIRST DRIVE OF THE PLAYOFFS AND IS ONE AND DONE AGAINST A JETS TEAM THEY BEAT 45-3 A FEW WEEKS EARLIER ON MONDAY NIGHT FOOTBALL?! And like you pointed out yourself, 3 picks and 3 points in the second half against the Packers! If Peyton Manning had ever done anything like that we'd never have heard the end of it. It's less "Oh, but can he win without a great defense?" and it's more... Is the defense not doing all of the work again and again and again? Leaving aside the spying of which they were convicted that throws a giant fucking WTF over their first three championships, the defense in that first Super Bowl held the greatest show on turf to 17 points! In the third Super Bowl what if Fat Andy runs a hurry up offense at the end of the game?! His coaching, the Eagles offense and the Pats D determined that game, not Brady. In between those first three championships was, of course, the season where they let him throw the ball 600 times, and they didn't even make the playoffs. Once that defense got old and the team was turned over to him he had that god tier 2007 season which came crashing to a halt when the last two games of the season were his worst two games of the season. Remember "We're only going to score 17 points?" NO, BITCH! YOU'RE ONLY GOING TO SCORE 14! What about the 06 Championship game where he had the 15 point half time lead and couldn't maintain his lead when Peyton Manning and flag gate took it to the defense?! CIRCLE BACK TO THE RAVENS! What about the 2014 Divisional Round where Joe Flacco was kicking his ass again until that final fucking drive where they've gotten like 3/4 first downs including converting that clutch as fuck 4th down, they're beautifully taking time off the clock AND THEN THEY JUST RANDOMLY GO FOR THE FUCKING END ZONE?! WHAT WERE THEY THINKING?! WHY DO YOU WANT TO GIVE THEM THE BALL BACK WITH TIME ON THE CLOCK EVEN IF YOU SCORE, BUT OF COURSE HE GETS PICKED OFF AND BRADY'S DEFENSE SAVES HIS ASS ONCE AGAIN! Speaking of boneheaded calls, what about whatever the fuck the Seahawks were doing on the 1 yard line?! If they just run it in and Malcolm Butler doesn't win the Super Bowl is Tom Brady less GOAT? AND ATLANTA! OH, ATLANTA! IF MATT RYAN COULD RUN FUCKING CLOCK TO KILL THE GAME AND TIRE THE OPPOSING DEFENSE INSTEAD OF JUST MAHOMES'ING IT? IF THE PATRIOTS D HADN'T COME UP WITH MULTIPLE MIRACLE PLAYS IN THE FOURTH QUARTER BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT PHYSICALLY SPENT TO GIFT THEIR OFFENSE ALL THOSE OPPORTUNITIES? IF MATT RYAN (MVP OF THE LEAGUE) DIDN'T COUGH UP FUMBLES OR TAKE MASSIVE SACKS WHEN IN FIELD GOAL RANGE? AND IF THAT FALCON DEFENSE THAT KEPT BRADY IN THEIR POCKET THE WHOLE GAME HADN'T GIVEN UP ALL THOSE FLAGS TO EXTEND DRIVES WHEN HE COULDN'T AND GASSED THEMSELVES OUT? Would the Patriot offense have even been in a position to do what they did? Literally the Falcons had to fall to pieces and their D needed to make multiple amazing plays AND rely on penalties. Yes, it is admirable that he took his opportunities, but unlike say Rodgers two weeks ago by the time he needed to convert his opportunities he was no longer being met with any resistance. Anyway, I apologize for my slightly less eloquent Moby Dick of a post, but... Well, I guess I am the Ahab of this story To the last I grapple with thee, Tom Brady. At least I didn't have anything in here about whaling. I mean, I was using calamities in reference to Jameis Winston Brady doesn't have calamities in the sense that he doesn't tank entire seasons with a team tailor-made to succeed. Has he had bad games? Sure. Have some of those bad games been in the playoffs? Yeah. Has his defense had to come through in critical moments? Absolutely. All of those things are the same case with every other historically great QB. But nobody uses the 49ers goal line stand in Super Bowl XVI or his defense crushing an unprecedented Miami offense in Super Bowl XIX to try to diminish Joe Montana's legacy, because that's silly. Nor does anyone bring up the upset against the Vikings in 1987 where Montana played so bad that Steve Young came in for relief to score the 49ers only offensive TDs. How come we don't nitpick at Montana? Because he contributed to a dynasty, playing more than well enough to put the team in a position to win far more times than not. Well, Brady has done that more and for longer than any QB in NFL history. So much so that you need to note the times he didn't to try to make a case against it. Again, I don't like it either and I've said enough about how the rule changes and schemes have evolved so much to make the job of QBs easier to the point where it's now impossible to judge between eras because the difference in the game just from when Brady started to now is greater than the difference from Unitas to Favre. I'm taking myself out of the argument. But for those like you still wanting to argue, there's just not enough to ding Brady in any criteria. Other QBs have been more talented or put up gaudier numbers, but at the end of the day coming through on the biggest stages and winning have been what lasts long after regular season records break. It's what put Montana over Marino and it'll be what keeps Brady over Manning and Rodgers.
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Post by ibbi on Feb 9, 2021 14:53:52 GMT
OMG GUYS, THEY GOT MIKE TOO! MIKE! Tom Brady doesn't have calamities or waste opportunities?! I can't believe I'm going to get into this with a Ravens fan! 2009 Wild Card Weekend?! That wasn't a calamity?! What about 2 years later in the championship game WHERE JOE FLACCO PUTS THE BALL IN LEE EVANS HANDS IN THE END ZONE, STERLING MOORE KNOCKS IT OUT, AND BILLY CUNDIFF MISSES THE CHIP SHOT FIELD GOAL? TOM BRADY GARGLED BALLS IN THAT GAME. What about the rematch the next year where King Joe outduelled him to the tune of 21-0 in the second half?? He turned the ball over three god damn times in the second half of the championship game! The highlight of the whole game was the infamous studs up play, that idiots focused on because his studs were up, not because he slid IN BOUNDS in the redzone and they have to use their final timeout and settle for a field goal. A historically bad choke that is on nobody but him. AND THAT'S JUST THE RAVENS! When he fumbles the ball having driven into the Giants half of the field at the end of the first half with a timeout left in his pocket in SB42 in a game they end up losing by 3 points! That's all on him too! What about the second Giants Super Bowl where he needs to drive 80 yards at the end of the game when they trail by 4, when if he HADN'T GIVEN UP A SAFETY ON HIS FIRST PLAY OF THE GAME THEY'D HAVE LIKELY BEEN DOWN BY 2 AND ALL THEY'D HAVE NEEDED WAS A TOM-BRADY-SPECIAL DRIVE INTO FIELD GOAL RANGE TO WIN THE GAME?! What about in 2010 where he goes 11 games without throwing an interception AND THEN THROWS ONE ON HIS VERY FIRST DRIVE OF THE PLAYOFFS AND IS ONE AND DONE AGAINST A JETS TEAM THEY BEAT 45-3 A FEW WEEKS EARLIER ON MONDAY NIGHT FOOTBALL?! And like you pointed out yourself, 3 picks and 3 points in the second half against the Packers! If Peyton Manning had ever done anything like that we'd never have heard the end of it. It's less "Oh, but can he win without a great defense?" and it's more... Is the defense not doing all of the work again and again and again? Leaving aside the spying of which they were convicted that throws a giant fucking WTF over their first three championships, the defense in that first Super Bowl held the greatest show on turf to 17 points! In the third Super Bowl what if Fat Andy runs a hurry up offense at the end of the game?! His coaching, the Eagles offense and the Pats D determined that game, not Brady. In between those first three championships was, of course, the season where they let him throw the ball 600 times, and they didn't even make the playoffs. Once that defense got old and the team was turned over to him he had that god tier 2007 season which came crashing to a halt when the last two games of the season were his worst two games of the season. Remember "We're only going to score 17 points?" NO, BITCH! YOU'RE ONLY GOING TO SCORE 14! What about the 06 Championship game where he had the 15 point half time lead and couldn't maintain his lead when Peyton Manning and flag gate took it to the defense?! CIRCLE BACK TO THE RAVENS! What about the 2014 Divisional Round where Joe Flacco was kicking his ass again until that final fucking drive where they've gotten like 3/4 first downs including converting that clutch as fuck 4th down, they're beautifully taking time off the clock AND THEN THEY JUST RANDOMLY GO FOR THE FUCKING END ZONE?! WHAT WERE THEY THINKING?! WHY DO YOU WANT TO GIVE THEM THE BALL BACK WITH TIME ON THE CLOCK EVEN IF YOU SCORE, BUT OF COURSE HE GETS PICKED OFF AND BRADY'S DEFENSE SAVES HIS ASS ONCE AGAIN! Speaking of boneheaded calls, what about whatever the fuck the Seahawks were doing on the 1 yard line?! If they just run it in and Malcolm Butler doesn't win the Super Bowl is Tom Brady less GOAT? AND ATLANTA! OH, ATLANTA! IF MATT RYAN COULD RUN FUCKING CLOCK TO KILL THE GAME AND TIRE THE OPPOSING DEFENSE INSTEAD OF JUST MAHOMES'ING IT? IF THE PATRIOTS D HADN'T COME UP WITH MULTIPLE MIRACLE PLAYS IN THE FOURTH QUARTER BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT PHYSICALLY SPENT TO GIFT THEIR OFFENSE ALL THOSE OPPORTUNITIES? IF MATT RYAN (MVP OF THE LEAGUE) DIDN'T COUGH UP FUMBLES OR TAKE MASSIVE SACKS WHEN IN FIELD GOAL RANGE? AND IF THAT FALCON DEFENSE THAT KEPT BRADY IN THEIR POCKET THE WHOLE GAME HADN'T GIVEN UP ALL THOSE FLAGS TO EXTEND DRIVES WHEN HE COULDN'T AND GASSED THEMSELVES OUT? Would the Patriot offense have even been in a position to do what they did? Literally the Falcons had to fall to pieces and their D needed to make multiple amazing plays AND rely on penalties. Yes, it is admirable that he took his opportunities, but unlike say Rodgers two weeks ago by the time he needed to convert his opportunities he was no longer being met with any resistance. Anyway, I apologize for my slightly less eloquent Moby Dick of a post, but... Well, I guess I am the Ahab of this story To the last I grapple with thee, Tom Brady. At least I didn't have anything in here about whaling. I mean, I was using calamities in reference to Jameis Winston Brady doesn't have calamities in the sense that he doesn't tank entire seasons with a team tailor-made to succeed. Has he had bad games? Sure. Have some of those bad games been in the playoffs? Yeah. Has his defense had to come through in critical moments? Absolutely. All of those things are the same case with every other historically great QB. But nobody uses the 49ers goal line stand in Super Bowl XVI or his defense crushing an unprecedented Miami offense in Super Bowl XIX to try to diminish Joe Montana's legacy, because that's silly. Nor does anyone bring up the upset against the Vikings in 1987 where Montana played so bad that Steve Young came in for relief to score the 49ers only offensive TDs. How come we don't nitpick at Montana? Because he contributed to a dynasty, playing more than well enough to put the team in a position to win far more times than not. Well, Brady has done that more and for longer than any QB in NFL history. So much so that you need to note the times he didn't to try to make a case against it. Again, I don't like it either and I've said enough about how the rule changes and schemes have evolved so much to make the job of QBs easier to the point where it's now impossible to judge between eras because the difference in the game just from when Brady started to now is greater than the difference from Unitas to Favre. I'm taking myself out of the argument. But for those like you still wanting to argue, there's just not enough to ding Brady in any criteria. Other QBs have been more talented or put up gaudier numbers, but at the end of the day coming through on the biggest stages and winning have been what lasts long after regular season records break. It's what put Montana over Marino and it'll be what keeps Brady over Manning and Rodgers. Hey, I completely agree with the fact that comparing people from now to previous eras is stupid. I'm not arguing for anyone else here. But as you ask, one reason I'd be less inclined to nitpick guys from previous eras (aside from having seen much less of them ), is that they didn't play in such pass happy leagues. To me riding on the coattails of your defense in generally defense dominated eras is less of a black mark than doing it at a time when they're practically hog tied, and you barely play under any pressure. Like, maybe my favourite Brady playoff game might be that 2015 Championship Game in Denver. He got neither a stat line worth remembering nor the result he wanted, but doing your job in wars like that is to me what makes one great. Whatever Master Yoda might say. In this day and age I think determining greatness by playing more than well enough seems a low bar, and save for the Carolina Super Bowl, and I guess the Seattle one if you want to be real generous, his best games come in blowouts. The amount of close playoff games determined at the death less by him and more by others on his team (or the other team) is what I hold against him. Manning, Brees, and Rodgers all have numerous playoff losses in which they too were more than good enough, it's just that nobody bailed them out the way they did him again and again and again (but look what happened when they did? Peyton was - at best - mediocre in his first Super Bowl run, and barely even a football player in the second one ) seems harsh to me to hold him in higher regard than his peers based on the work of others.
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