Good God
Badass
Posts: 1,633
Likes: 1,937
|
Post by Good God on Jun 15, 2020 23:45:02 GMT
what is the flipside here anyways? don't allow police abuse to go viral? the studies clearly mention that it is the nationwide reaction that happens in response to these events, so should they not be publicized? It'd help if the media did not misrepresent the truth through cherry-picked coverage and egregious statistical analysis with the express intention of riling people up. De-policing is different to not policing protests, so this is neither here nor there. I haven't looked at the data this year so I have no opinion on whether additional law enforcement would have helped or made matters worse, though my inclination would be toward the former. Either way, the political response has set a very bad precedent and will only encourage unruly behavior in the future. You can question some of the data but not all of it. Some of it is not even from reports by police departments, so this "corruption" argument will only take you so far. This is just stacking the deck in the most insidious of ways. Instead of providing any data of your own that even remotely proves that police in America are generally biased against certain sections of the population, which is how any reasonable discussion about this should start off in the first place, I see people questioning the mountain of counter-evidence by demanding that all of it meets the impossible standard of being exhaustive and perfect. Arguments based on the available and statistically significant 60%-80% of the overall data are much more valid than arguments based on personal experiences or no data at all. You can't solve a problem if you don't even know what the problem is. Let's focus on identifying the problem before we go about trying to find the solution.
|
|
Film Socialism
Based
99.9999% of rock is crap
Posts: 2,553
Likes: 1,386
|
Post by Film Socialism on Jun 15, 2020 23:58:59 GMT
what is the flipside here anyways? don't allow police abuse to go viral? the studies clearly mention that it is the nationwide reaction that happens in response to these events, so should they not be publicized? It'd help if the media did not misrepresent the truth through cherry-picked coverage and egregious statistical analysis with the express intention of riling people up. what truth do you believe the media at large has misrepresented about police departments in the last few weeks?De-policing is different to not policing protests, so this is neither here nor there. I haven't looked at the data this year so I have no opinion on whether additional law enforcement would have helped or made matters worse, though my inclination would be toward the former. Either way, the political response has set a very bad precedent and will only encourage unruly behavior in the future. it will encourage unruly behavior largely because the steps that are being taken (except maybe by minneapolis though time will tell there) are miniscule in comparison to what the demands areYou can question some of the data but not all of it. Some of it is not even from reports by police departments, so this "corruption" argument will only take you so far. This is just stacking the deck in the most insidious of ways. Instead of providing any data of your own that even remotely proves that police in America are generally biased against certain sections of the population, which is how any reasonable discussion about this should start off in the first place, I see people questioning the mountain of counter-evidence by demanding that all of it meets the impossible standard of being exhaustive and perfect. Arguments based on the available and statistically significant 60%-80% of the overall data are much more valid than arguments based on no data at all. this is probably why i specified "fbi crime statistics," no? try reading next time.
you're asking me to provide data which show that police are biased against certain sections of the population, correct? seems like a weird request but if that's what you want specifically i would be happy to provide it.You can't solve a problem if you don't even know what the problem is. Let's focus on identifying the problem before we go about trying to find the solution. ok confucius
|
|
Good God
Badass
Posts: 1,633
Likes: 1,937
|
Post by Good God on Jun 16, 2020 0:05:21 GMT
what truth do you believe the media at large has misrepresented about police departments in the last few weeks? That unjustified shootings by cops are extremely rare and that white cops aren't targeting and disproportionately killing black Americans. The demands are stupid and submitting to them will cost lives. No. Try thinking next time. I'll wait. Anytime, dumbass.
|
|
|
Post by pacinoyes on Jun 16, 2020 0:10:24 GMT
what truth do you believe the media at large has misrepresented about police departments in the last few weeks? Staying out of this thread nowadays and GoodGod certainly doesn't need my help but just to make this clear because how many times do I need to repeat this (wtf is wrong with people here (?) READ THE THREAD): .................... "police are a "leading cause" cause of death for black men" - that's an obscene lie - I hear it every day - multiple times per day on multiple media outlets - it's a purposeful, repeated and provable statistical lie on the left........ Carry on........I'm out......
|
|
Film Socialism
Based
99.9999% of rock is crap
Posts: 2,553
Likes: 1,386
|
Post by Film Socialism on Jun 16, 2020 1:07:40 GMT
|
|
Good God
Badass
Posts: 1,633
Likes: 1,937
|
Post by Good God on Jun 16, 2020 1:14:38 GMT
Rare in terms of total interactions between police and the public. Ah, yes. This is exactly what I meant by egregious statistical analysis. If population were a valid benchmark, it would show that police were more biased against white men than against black women because they are nearly 8 times more likely to kill white men than black women (by population). It would also show that police were more biased against white people than against Asian people. Doesn't exactly further the "Cops are racist against minorities!" narrative, does it? The obvious relation here is with violent crime and violence against police, which correlates almost too well. But that would make too much sense. Going by real world data, police are actually killing proportionally less black people than white people relative to the number of cop killings by black people and white people. You've made my point. Thank you.
|
|
Film Socialism
Based
99.9999% of rock is crap
Posts: 2,553
Likes: 1,386
|
Post by Film Socialism on Jun 16, 2020 2:03:21 GMT
Rare in terms of total interactions between police and the public. but it isn't rare in terms of how it compares to similar socio-economically developed countriesAh, yes. This is exactly what I meant by egregious statistical analysis. If population were a valid benchmark, it would show that police were more biased against white men than against black women because they are nearly 8 times more likely to kill white men than black women (by population). It would also show that police were more biased against white people than against Asian people. Doesn't exactly further the "Cops are racist against minorities!" narrative, does it? no idea what this means. men are discriminated against particularly by cops as well as justice systems, and black people are as well. i have no earthly idea how you think this changes things lol, the KKK didn't stop being racist when they didn't really give a shit about asians for the most partThe obvious relation here is with violent crime and violence against police, which correlates almost too well. But that would make too much sense. Going by real world data, police are actually killing proportionally less black people than white people relative to the number of cop killings by black people and white people. please think before typing next time You've made my point. Thank you. yep
|
|
Good God
Badass
Posts: 1,633
Likes: 1,937
|
Post by Good God on Jun 16, 2020 2:13:11 GMT
but it isn't rare in terms of how it compares to similar socio-economically developed countries Why is that the standard? And how many of these "similar socio-economically developed countries" have the gun laws that America does? It seems to me that your contention is that: 1. Cops are more bigoted against white men than against black women 2. Cops are more bigoted against whites than against Asians Yeah, makes sense. I do that all the time. Maybe you're just an idiot that can't comprehend statistics despite majoring in it. I'll just refer you back to the Dolan Consulting article I posted earlier.
|
|
Film Socialism
Based
99.9999% of rock is crap
Posts: 2,553
Likes: 1,386
|
Post by Film Socialism on Jun 16, 2020 2:43:06 GMT
but it isn't rare in terms of how it compares to similar socio-economically developed countries Why is that the standard? And how many of these "similar socio-economically developed countries" have the gun laws that America does? what else would be the standard? how many similar socio-economically developed countries have the same regulations with police that america doesIt seems to me that your contention is that: 1. Cops are more bigoted against white men than against black women 2. Cops are more bigoted against whites than against Asians Yeah, makes sense. from what i've seen on the numbers regarding fatal shootings, those appear to be true. i'm not sure on profiling offhand.I do that all the time. Maybe you're just an idiot that can't comprehend statistics despite majoring in it. I'll just refer you back to the Dolan Consulting article I posted earlier. nowhere in bayesian inference did they teach me that police should go after black people more because completely unrelated black people target them; how police justify their racism is irrelevant
|
|
Good God
Badass
Posts: 1,633
Likes: 1,937
|
Post by Good God on Jun 16, 2020 2:56:59 GMT
what else would be the standard? how many similar socio-economically developed countries have the same regulations with police that america does I've just given you the standard. Take total interactions and the number of unjustified shootings. Even being conservative, the probability of being unjustifiably killed in an interaction with the police is less than 1 in a million. Cool, at least you're consistent, even if you're only consistent in being wrong. Wow, man, is that what you got from the data? I didn't think this needed to be explained. Did you even read the article I referenced? Here is an excerpt from it: It's not about cops getting back at innocent black men because other black men have killed cops. It's about black men being more likely to attack or (attempt to) kill cops, which in turn means that they are more likely to be responded to with deadly force. It's causal and it correlates extremely well across all races.
|
|
Film Socialism
Based
99.9999% of rock is crap
Posts: 2,553
Likes: 1,386
|
Post by Film Socialism on Jun 16, 2020 3:34:52 GMT
what else would be the standard? how many similar socio-economically developed countries have the same regulations with police that america does I've just given you the standard. Take total interactions and the number of unjustified shootings. Even being conservative, the probability of being unjustifiably killed in an interaction with the police is less than 1 in a million. from the extremely basic study i linked:
"The researchers used verified data on police killings from 2013 to 2018 compiled by the website Fatal Encounters, created by Nevada-based journalist D. Brian Burghart. Under their models, they found that roughly 1-in-1,000 black boys and men will be killed by police in their lifetime. For white boys and men, the rate is 39 out of 100,000."
Cool, at least you're consistent, even if you're only consistent in being wrong. ?? i'm literally agreeing with you lmaoWow, man, is that what you got from the data? I didn't think this needed to be explained. Did you even read the article I referenced? Here is an excerpt from it: It's not about cops getting back at innocent black men because other black men have killed cops. It's about black men being more likely to attack or (attempt to) kill cops, which in turn means that they are more likely to be responded to with deadly force. It's causal and it correlates extremely well across all races. this is extremely close to the 1350 dogwhistle just with slightly different stats, very bad look imo
|
|
Good God
Badass
Posts: 1,633
Likes: 1,937
|
Post by Good God on Jun 16, 2020 3:45:48 GMT
from the extremely basic study i linked: "The researchers used verified data on police killings from 2013 to 2018 compiled by the website Fatal Encounters, created by Nevada-based journalist D. Brian Burghart. Under their models, they found that roughly 1-in-1,000 black boys and men will be killed by police in their lifetime. For white boys and men, the rate is 39 out of 100,000." Not sure how this detracts from what I said. I posted the (unjustifiable) fatality rate for each police interaction. You posted the fatality rate over a lifetime (which doesn't account for a myriad of factors). No, you're not. I was saying how ridiculous that line of reasoning is because of the absurdity of its conclusions, but I guess you don't find the conclusion that cops are way more bigoted against white men than against black women to be absurd. Yeah, unfortunately, the facts are racist.
|
|
Film Socialism
Based
99.9999% of rock is crap
Posts: 2,553
Likes: 1,386
|
Post by Film Socialism on Jun 16, 2020 3:50:00 GMT
from the extremely basic study i linked: "The researchers used verified data on police killings from 2013 to 2018 compiled by the website Fatal Encounters, created by Nevada-based journalist D. Brian Burghart. Under their models, they found that roughly 1-in-1,000 black boys and men will be killed by police in their lifetime. For white boys and men, the rate is 39 out of 100,000." Not sure how this detracts from what I said. I posted the (unjustifiable) fatality rate for each police interaction. You posted the fatality rate over a lifetime (which doesn't account for a myriad of factors). do you think people have, on average, 1000 encounters with police in their lifetime?No, you're not. I was saying how ridiculous that line of reasoning is because of the absurdity of its conclusions, but I guess you don't find the conclusion that cops are way more bigoted against white men than against black women to be absurd. why would i find that conclusion to be absurd? there is ample evidence to support that claim depending on which metrics you're usingYeah, unfortunately, the facts are racist. ben shapiro ass
|
|
Good God
Badass
Posts: 1,633
Likes: 1,937
|
Post by Good God on Jun 16, 2020 3:57:39 GMT
do you think people have, on average, 1000 encounters with police in their lifetime? I would guess not. The "evidence" that supports that claim is very simplistic and doesn't account for a lot of essential context and factors. I would say that men are ten times more likely to be killed by cops than women not because cops are sexist against men but because men commit way more violent crime (including assaults on police officers), but I understand now that that point would be lost on you. I think I heard that phrase from Larry Elder, actually.
|
|
Film Socialism
Based
99.9999% of rock is crap
Posts: 2,553
Likes: 1,386
|
Post by Film Socialism on Jun 16, 2020 4:07:06 GMT
do you think people have, on average, 1000 encounters with police in their lifetime? I would guess not. ok i leave the rest of the extremely rudimentary probability analysis to you then to determine why your one in a million stat (which was disproved by the first page of the main study i linked) is wrongThe "evidence" that supports that claim is very simplistic and doesn't account for a lot of essential context and factors. I would say that men are ten times more likely to be killed by cops than women not because cops are sexist against men but because men commit way more violent crime (including assaults on police officers), but I understand now that that point would be lost on you. is this why the legal system particularly targets black males for the same levels of violent crimes that other groups do? this stuff you're saying is the reasoning that has been given by stop-and-frisk proponents, white nationalists, and plenty of other hard-right groups to justify their racism. it misses out on essential context on race and gender dynamics and perpetuates the issues that vulnerable groups face as a result of it.
|
|
Good God
Badass
Posts: 1,633
Likes: 1,937
|
Post by Good God on Jun 16, 2020 4:15:41 GMT
ok i leave the rest of the extremely rudimentary probability analysis to you then to determine why your one in a million stat (which was disproved by the first page of the main study i linked) is wrong The only thing wrong is your comprehension of English words. I guess that's what happens when you let your brain muscles atrophy by being a basement dweller. 1. I was talking about unjustifiable cop killings. You were talking about all cop killings, including justifiable ones. There is obviously going to be a discrepancy because we're talking about different things. 2. The 1-in-1000 number you cited only applies to black males and not everyone. And then you asked me if the average person (irrespective of race and sex) has 1000 interactions with police in their lifetime. Another blunder. I don't know what the legal system does and I don't care what stop-and-frisk proponents and white nationalists argue. I am giving you stats and facts that explain the number of cop killings. As inconvenient as they might be to your narrative, they are valid and paint a very clear picture.
|
|
|
Post by quetee on Jun 16, 2020 4:21:31 GMT
My question is who is this consulting group and why should we listen to them?
|
|
Good God
Badass
Posts: 1,633
Likes: 1,937
|
Post by Good God on Jun 16, 2020 4:23:05 GMT
My question is who is this consulting group and why should we listen to them? The consulting group is Dolan Consulting Group and we should listen to them because they are providing empirical evidence and data instead of anecdotal evidence and personal feelings.
|
|
Film Socialism
Based
99.9999% of rock is crap
Posts: 2,553
Likes: 1,386
|
Post by Film Socialism on Jun 16, 2020 4:31:19 GMT
ok i leave the rest of the extremely rudimentary probability analysis to you then to determine why your one in a million stat (which was disproved by the first page of the main study i linked) is wrong The only thing wrong is your comprehension of English words. I guess that's what happens when you let your brain muscles atrophy by being a basement dweller. 1. I was talking about unjustifiable cop killings. You were talking about all cop killings, including justifiable ones. There is obviously going to be a discrepancy because we're talking about different things. this seems entirely subjective, not to mention difficult to measure considering how rarely police officers are actually prosecuted for that. from the way i see things, a slim percentage of police killings are justified.2. The 1-in-1000 number you cited only applies to black males and not everyone. And then you asked me if the average person (irrespective of race and sex) has 1000 interactions with police in their lifetime. Another blunder. you'll forgive me for not busting out the calculator on the 27/100000 to 1/1000000 conversion. my mistake. do you think the average person encounters police officers 270 times in their lifetime?I don't know what the legal system does and I don't care what stop-and-frisk proponents and white nationalists argue. I am giving you stats and facts that explain the number of cop killings. As inconvenient as they might be to your narrative, they are valid and paint a very clear picture. www.sentencingproject.org/publications/un-report-on-racial-disparities/
why do you think black people, based on the numbers you've provided, are more likely to attack police officers than those of other races?
|
|
|
Post by quetee on Jun 16, 2020 4:33:06 GMT
My question is who is this consulting group and why should we listen to them? The consulting group is Dolan Consulting Group and we should listen to them because they are providing empirical evidence and data instead of anecdotal evidence and personal feelings. I'm asking who are they and what product are they selling? That makes all the difference in the world. Anyone can take data and present a viewpoint to fit an agenda. They are a consulting group so obviously they sell a service. What is that service and who is putting together the data? What are they trying to show in order to sell their product?
|
|
Good God
Badass
Posts: 1,633
Likes: 1,937
|
Post by Good God on Jun 16, 2020 4:46:05 GMT
this seems entirely subjective, not to mention difficult to measure considering how rarely police officers are actually prosecuted for that. from the way i see things, a slim percentage of police killings are justified. I'll concede that it is subjective, but even that leaves us with only 1 in 200000 interactions with police being fatal (justifiably or unjustifiably). This one is harder to say. I won't venture a guess. Black people are more likely to commit violent crime and it makes sense that you will have more hostile interactions with cops if you commit more violent crime. The data also shows that black people are more likely to kill cops than those of other races, which suggests that they also have more violent altercations with cops than those of other races. I agree with most of what the article I posted suggests. It feels like you haven't even read it.
|
|
Good God
Badass
Posts: 1,633
Likes: 1,937
|
Post by Good God on Jun 16, 2020 4:48:58 GMT
I'm asking who are they and what product are they selling? That makes all the difference in the world. Anyone can take data and present a viewpoint to fit an agenda. They are a consulting group so obviously they sell a service. What is that service and who is putting together the data? What are they trying to show in order to sell their product? Ad hominem. Have you even read the article or do you already have your mind made up?
|
|
|
Post by quetee on Jun 16, 2020 4:57:46 GMT
I'm asking who are they and what product are they selling? That makes all the difference in the world. Anyone can take data and present a viewpoint to fit an agenda. They are a consulting group so obviously they sell a service. What is that service and who is putting together the data? What are they trying to show in order to sell their product? Ad hominem. Have you even read the article or do you already have your mind made up? I started reading it but I want to know who this group is and what is their agenda. I've taken classes before and that is the first thing they ask, can you trust the article.
|
|
|
Post by quetee on Jun 16, 2020 4:58:36 GMT
this seems entirely subjective, not to mention difficult to measure considering how rarely police officers are actually prosecuted for that. from the way i see things, a slim percentage of police killings are justified. I'll concede that it is subjective, but even that leaves us with only 1 in 200000 interactions with police being fatal (justifiably or unjustifiably). This one is harder to say. I won't venture a guess. Black people are more likely to commit violent crime and it makes sense that you will have more hostile interactions with cops if you commit more violent crime. The data also shows that black people are more likely to kill cops than those of other races, which suggests that they also have more violent altercations with cops than those of other races. I agree with most of what the article I posted suggests. It feels like you haven't even read it. What about crimes in general?
|
|
Good God
Badass
Posts: 1,633
Likes: 1,937
|
Post by Good God on Jun 16, 2020 5:04:17 GMT
I started reading it but I want to know who this group is and what is their agenda. I've taken classes before and that is the first thing they ask, can you trust the article. They've sourced all their references at the end of the article, so you can always verify the validity of their data. I agree that that's a smart thing to do and to not trust everything you read. What about crimes in general? Going by 2015 arrest rates: White: 70% of all arrests (73% of the population) Black: 26.5% of all arrests (12.7% of the population) American Indian: 2% of all arrests (not sure, but maybe 0.9%-1.6% of the population) Asian: 1.5% of all arrests (5.4% of the population) SourceI posted 2015 data because that's the most relevant year to the article I posted. You can toggle between years for a broader picture, but I think it's rather consistent.
|
|