Film Socialism
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Post by Film Socialism on May 11, 2019 17:31:22 GMT
i'm not entirely sure what the point of the last paragraph here is; obviously because the united states is extremely right wing, a right winger (in this case, shapiro) will be more dominant than anyone on the left by metrics alone. if your question of "dominating the discourse" begins and ends at "sheer popularity" then it's relatively simple to set up generally good faith metrics and answer the question on your own. Well the last paragraph sort of was a summation of the first post and topic at hand - but do you think that the US is extremely right wing? The left argues this all the time - ie we are closer to left middle than right middle and if people voted their "interests" they'd vote left. Rather than just arguing popularity I think it's just the right can codify their positions better and there's no one on the left able (yet?) to do the same - it's not "just" popularity but that's part of it. I can see Michael Knowles having a lot in common with various people ...........I'm not so sure about Cenk Uygur at all in his role as a commentator at least. I'm starting to think it really is someone like Maddow I guess ........... The 3 guys mentioned in the subject line sometimes disagree with each other - so it's not even a thing where they are spewing the same exact rhetoric - the left I'm afraid to say is doing that more it seems to me and seems indistinguishable to me at the moment at least....... i mean yeah, we still don't have a number of government programs that other similarly developed nations do, taxes are very lenient on virtually everyone, pretty much every elected member of congress (not to mention the president and the supreme court) is a capitalist except for like 3 people who are kind of left, etc. i think there's something to be said that it's possible the -country- is not extremely right wing, it's just that the -government- is, but i kind of think it's a bit disingenuous to see it that way, in part - as you mention - because the discourse is extremely right wing too. there should be 0 patience for, at the very least, climate change deniers who have an impact in politics. it should be up there with antivax parents, flat earth conspiracy theorists, and astrology girls for "laugh at these people sometimes but don't give them a platform." another part of the problem (i think) is that, because there are so few leftists in any position of power politically or in the media, americans haven't really engaged with the ideology at all. as an example, a solid 90% of the lefties i know are radically pro-gun, to similar levels of right-wingers in the US, but if you ask a random person on the streets in america what "the left" thinks of guns, you'll almost certainly hear that they're against them (because, well, liberals tend to be). liberals have no power in discourse today because their ideology is not one which inspires passion - it's a black hole of half-measures - and it's in a constant struggle with positions that make actual stances (be they communist or fascist, anarchist or authoritarian).
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Post by countjohn on May 11, 2019 17:39:11 GMT
Even though I think Shapiro is a great debater, put someone against him that knows what they’re talking about (such as Seder or Kulinski), and he’d easily lose the debate. This video is evident of that and it was actually pretty embarrassing to see how flustered he was getting. The thing with this is that guy worked at the Daily Mail forever and is a longtime associate of the Murdochs. In no way is he "left wing". It would be like saying Chris Wallace from Fox News was a biased liberal journalist. That's why he laughed the way he did when he said "why won't you just admit you're on the left".
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Post by IceTruckDexter on May 11, 2019 19:37:30 GMT
Even though I think Shapiro is a great debater, put someone against him that knows what they’re talking about (such as Seder or Kulinski), and he’d easily lose the debate. This video is evident of that and it was actually pretty embarrassing to see how flustered he was getting. He handled incredibly poorly but all he went to was those tweets from like a decade ago. It's not exactly in good faith.
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Post by IceTruckDexter on May 11, 2019 19:41:10 GMT
America is a lot more divided in regards to political positions in the industralized world because some of the ‘far left positions’ are just centrist (even right wing) positions in other countries, such as healthcare for an example. What are you babbling on about? They weren't talking about healthcare in general but the ethicacy of abortion. Also Kulinski and Seder are gobshites.
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Post by IceTruckDexter on May 11, 2019 19:44:02 GMT
Oh he clearly lost - it is 1-0 - especially by stopping but not in quite the way it's being made out - he makes several arguments here - especially until the "fascism" in Obama's speech where he he starts to flail .........but that kind of gets back to the thread topic: When he's arguing position facts he's solid but he is easy to mock when he falls into an emotional trap and Neil is really attacking Shapiro with his own words....... and doing it quite well at that - but to somebody who wouldn't know either - ie the majority of voters in 2020 - this is sort of intellectual gamesmanship that doesn't matter much, right (or am I mistaken?) Shapiro has a daily podcast, a #1 book recently, he drives that discourse far more than anyone in the US left does in that way - and I think those guys are much relevant to the political climate than an overt intellectual like Hitchens or a loudmouth with a microphone (Limbaugh) could be.........like to use your example, Kulinski could debate him, sure, but is there someone that sort of rivals that aspect of them (not Kulinski right?) and drive the discourse? I think we've maybe gone off the rails a bit with an "is Ben Shapiro smart at all" sidebar ..... i'm not entirely sure what the point of the last paragraph here is; obviously because the united states is extremely right wing, a right winger (in this case, shapiro) will be more dominant than anyone on the left by metrics alone. if your question of "dominating the discourse" begins and ends at "sheer popularity" then it's relatively simple to set up generally good faith metrics and answer the question on your own. Anyone slightly to the right of you you'd call an extreme right winger.
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Post by IceTruckDexter on May 11, 2019 19:46:51 GMT
Even though I think Shapiro is a great debater, put someone against him that knows what they’re talking about (such as Seder or Kulinski), and he’d easily lose the debate. This video is evident of that and it was actually pretty embarrassing to see how flustered he was getting. The thing with this is that guy worked at the Daily Mail forever and is a longtime associate of the Murdochs. In no way is he "left wing". It would be like saying Chris Wallace from Fox News was a biased liberal journalist. That's why he laughed the way he did when he said "why won't you just admit you're on the left". First time I've seen him look incredibly weak and flustered.
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Film Socialism
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Post by Film Socialism on May 11, 2019 21:55:07 GMT
i'm not entirely sure what the point of the last paragraph here is; obviously because the united states is extremely right wing, a right winger (in this case, shapiro) will be more dominant than anyone on the left by metrics alone. if your question of "dominating the discourse" begins and ends at "sheer popularity" then it's relatively simple to set up generally good faith metrics and answer the question on your own. Anyone slightly to the right of you you'd call an extreme right winger. people slightly to the right of me are bernie sanders and AOC types. people significantly to the right of me are corporate democrats. people extremely to the right of me are, well, extreme right wingers.
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Post by IceTruckDexter on May 12, 2019 1:35:58 GMT
Anyone slightly to the right of you you'd call an extreme right winger. people slightly to the right of me are bernie sanders and AOC types. people significantly to the right of me are corporate democrats. people extremely to the right of me are, well, extreme right wingers. So basically anybody on the right to you is extremely right wing, I understand. You're an imbecile.
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Film Socialism
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Post by Film Socialism on May 12, 2019 2:21:21 GMT
people slightly to the right of me are bernie sanders and AOC types. people significantly to the right of me are corporate democrats. people extremely to the right of me are, well, extreme right wingers. So basically anybody on the right to you is extremely right wing, I understand. You're an imbecile. i clarified it for you, if you like i can copy and paste the message so you can read it again
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Post by IceTruckDexter on May 12, 2019 10:26:44 GMT
So basically anybody on the right to you is extremely right wing, I understand. You're an imbecile. i clarified it for you, if you like i can copy and paste the message so you can read it again Yeah you clarified anybody who is on the right you deem an extremist. Read what you wrote again Sunshine.
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Film Socialism
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Post by Film Socialism on May 12, 2019 13:43:30 GMT
i clarified it for you, if you like i can copy and paste the message so you can read it again Yeah you clarified anybody who is on the right you deem an extremist. Read what you wrote again Sunshine. i wouldn't say obama or beto types are right wing extremists, i would just say they're right wing moderates
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dazed
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Post by dazed on May 12, 2019 14:10:40 GMT
America is a lot more divided in regards to political positions in the industralized world because some of the ‘far left positions’ are just centrist (even right wing) positions in other countries, such as healthcare for an example. What are you babbling on about? They weren't talking about healthcare in general but the ethicacy of abortion. Also Kulinski and Seder are gobshites. That quote I said wasn’t for the video, but rather pacinoyes’s comment.
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dazed
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Post by dazed on May 12, 2019 14:15:23 GMT
Even though I think Shapiro is a great debater, put someone against him that knows what they’re talking about (such as Seder or Kulinski), and he’d easily lose the debate. This video is evident of that and it was actually pretty embarrassing to see how flustered he was getting. He handled incredibly poorly but all he went to was those tweets from like a decade ago. It's not exactly in good faith. He also looked lost when he essentially said nothing on the rights new ideas. His comments on abortion were lackluster as well. The whole video from start till finish was poor on Bens part.
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dazed
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Post by dazed on May 12, 2019 14:16:58 GMT
Yeah you clarified anybody who is on the right you deem an extremist. Read what you wrote again Sunshine. i wouldn't say obama or beto types are right wing extremists, i would just say they're right wing moderates Yup. Someone like Obama was argubaly to the right of our own conservative prime minister, Harper. If not to the right, definitely on equal footing.
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Post by pacinoyes on May 12, 2019 14:43:55 GMT
He handled incredibly poorly but all he went to was those tweets from like a decade ago. It's not exactly in good faith. He also looked lost when he essentially said nothing on the rights new ideas. His comments on abortion were lackluster as well. The whole video from start till finish was poor on Bens part. Well, I mean none of the ideas dangled i front of him by Neil as being new were earth shattering - Medicare for all etc. - he dismissed as not new ideas and raised 2 or 3 back which is logical and fine - and abortion is like the flagship issue for him - he argues it exceedingly well and did fine here too - but again, he was off-track emotionally - but his position is solid here too - "My position is science". For him it's a moral issue and he doesn't waiver on it - I'm pro-choice but it's awfully hard to argue it on simply moral terms as he did - he knows that, at a certain point you have to simply dismiss his argument. Which I do ..........many won't. Stop the video prior to 10:50 and he's on his own solid Ben Shapiro ground ...........and then he derails. But again the thread topic has been lost on a video that won't relate to the thread or election and not be remembered either ..........or will be about as much as say Trump's income losses in 1989 ............... and poor Knowles and Klavan have been forgotten utterly in this thread
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atn
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Post by atn on May 12, 2019 15:34:47 GMT
Hilarious video. Not surprising given the fact that all Ben's ideas are microwave reheated movement conservative talking points. Turns out 1993's edition of National Review doesn't look as appetizing when it's being challenged by someone who isn't an undergrad leftist. Still not a dumb person's idea of a smart person though. I stand by that. For the forgotten... pacinoyes Knowles is Catholic at least but garbage in every other respect. I respect Klavan.
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Post by IceTruckDexter on May 12, 2019 21:44:42 GMT
Yeah you clarified anybody who is on the right you deem an extremist. Read what you wrote again Sunshine. i wouldn't say obama or beto types are right wing extremists, i would just say they're right wing moderates Like I said, you think anybody to the right of you is a right winger. No clown but you thinks Beto and Obama are right wingers.
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Post by IceTruckDexter on May 12, 2019 21:47:42 GMT
He handled incredibly poorly but all he went to was those tweets from like a decade ago. It's not exactly in good faith. He also looked lost when he essentially said nothing on the rights new ideas. His comments on abortion were lackluster as well. The whole video from start till finish was poor on Bens part. There are no new ideas. These are the same ideas that have been going around for 150 years on both the left and the right so it's a cheap point on the part of Andrew Neil who I generally like. He's usually a good hard hitting journalist but the whole thing felt like a hit job and Shapiro, really out of character let his emotions get the better of him.
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Post by IceTruckDexter on May 12, 2019 21:49:30 GMT
i wouldn't say obama or beto types are right wing extremists, i would just say they're right wing moderates Yup. Someone like Obama was argubaly to the right of our own conservative prime minister, Harper. If not to the right, definitely on equal footing. Since when is expansion of welfare, gun control and Obamacare right wing.
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Post by IceTruckDexter on May 12, 2019 21:54:58 GMT
What are you babbling on about? They weren't talking about healthcare in general but the ethicacy of abortion. Also Kulinski and Seder are gobshites. That quote I said wasn’t for the video, but rather pacinoyes’s comment. Socialized healthcare no matter what you say will never be considered right wing. It's just European conservative parties aren't as right wing as the Republican party. As far as I can tell there are no real conservative parties in Europe. The Tories in Britain may as well be Liberal Democrats. Fine Gael are flirting with joining the Commonwealth. Fucking traitors.
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dazed
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Post by dazed on May 13, 2019 2:57:02 GMT
Yup. Someone like Obama was argubaly to the right of our own conservative prime minister, Harper. If not to the right, definitely on equal footing. Since when is expansion of welfare, gun control and Obamacare right wing. Obamacare contains many qualities that were first proposed by Nixon and Heritage Foundation lol. They were essentially their plans for healthcare.
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dazed
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Post by dazed on May 13, 2019 2:58:46 GMT
That quote I said wasn’t for the video, but rather pacinoyes’s comment. Socialized healthcare no matter what you say will never be considered right wing. It's just European conservative parties aren't as right wing as the Republican party. As far as I can tell there are no real conservative parties in Europe. The Tories in Britain may as well be Liberal Democrats. Fine Gael are flirting with joining the Commonwealth. Fucking traitors. Again, because the American spectrum is so fucked and the republican party is so far right compared to other countries. Our right wing party in Canada never got rid of the single payer healthcare either.
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Post by IceTruckDexter on May 13, 2019 3:00:25 GMT
Since when is expansion of welfare, gun control and Obamacare right wing. Obamacare contains many qualities that were first proposed by Nixon and Heritage Foundation lol. They were essentially their plans for healthcare. And?
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Post by IceTruckDexter on May 13, 2019 3:02:11 GMT
Socialized healthcare no matter what you say will never be considered right wing. It's just European conservative parties aren't as right wing as the Republican party. As far as I can tell there are no real conservative parties in Europe. The Tories in Britain may as well be Liberal Democrats. Fine Gael are flirting with joining the Commonwealth. Fucking traitors. Again, because the American spectrum is so fucked and the republican party is so far right compared to other countries. Our right wing party in Canada never got rid of the single payer healthcare either. Or the Canadian spectrum is so fucked. You don't have a real conservative party. Your so called conservatives capitulates to the socialists all the time that you think your spectrum is correct.
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dazed
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Post by dazed on May 13, 2019 3:28:00 GMT
Obamacare contains many qualities that were first proposed by Nixon and Heritage Foundation lol. They were essentially their plans for healthcare. And? Lol. You’re using obamacare as an argument that someone isn’t right wing when it was first proposed plan by a president that was right wing and a right wing group.
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