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Post by pacinoyes on Feb 23, 2019 14:14:25 GMT
There was a good article in The Hill - that really talked about how this tag and Sanders in the race is forcing everyone to pivot - Harris explicitly staked out the other ground (O'Rourke too pre-emptively). But as a counterpoint campaign isn't that tag playing precisely into Trump's hands? I personally do not believe a left of center democrat can win - I know that's somewhat unpopular here........
Has the Democratic narrative already formed and is that playing into Trump's hands - Bernie Sanders? Socialist. Kamala Harris - socialist despite what she says etc. - is every Democratic contender except poor, loserish and marginalized John Delaney doomed to be planted with that tag?
Is that tag despite it's polling well now but soon to be turned sour once Republicans hammer it - and this has started now with hints how Trump will play it. Who owns the term............who wants the term? Who can argue the nuances of the term?
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Film Socialism
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Post by Film Socialism on Feb 23, 2019 17:30:58 GMT
it probably won't win over reactionaries but those people wouldn't be won over by anyone who is anything more than moderately socially liberal so who cares about them lol
i think as people who aren't in that group begin to realize the essential fact that climate change is going to bone us unless we get a left candidate, the passion for the demsuccs will go up. i mean there is clearly obvious support for these candidates - bernie alone got pretty close last time and has enormous grassroots support already. the last dem was as technically perfect as one can get (supported by the DNC, the media, prior executive experience, household name) and lost p badly because she's a weakass lib - who would go out of their day to vote for her?
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dazed
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Post by dazed on Feb 23, 2019 18:58:40 GMT
Well their definition of democratic socialism is actually a social democracy. Aka a capitalistic system with a strong social safety net. They’re pretty much changing what the definition of democratic socialism means, which annoys me. I feel like the term social democrat is viewed more positive than a democratic socialist, which is why I hate why Bernie started this trend of mislabeling himself as a democratic socialist when he’s not one.
When Bernie says what being a democratic socialist means (aka what being a social democrat means), that’s when people realize that it’s not so scary. So I’m not too worried about Trump going after the term. If he tries to argue Venezuela or something, that argument has been shot down time and time again. The social democrats can just point towards countries like Norway or Denmark which have been massively successful with the kind of policies they want to implement in the US. People will take notice of that.
Bernie is changing the narrative of socialism which is causing America to view socialism just as universal healthcare, free college tuition, raising taxes on the rich and corporations. Which is massively popular. Are they viewing socialism in the wrong way? Some what. Like I said though, the way they view it, is popular amongst the people. Which helps the candidates supporting it.
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Film Socialism
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Post by Film Socialism on Feb 23, 2019 19:19:53 GMT
Well their definition of democratic socialism is actually a social democracy. Aka a capitalistic system with a strong social safety net. They’re pretty much changing what the definition of democratic socialism means, which annoys me. I feel like the term social democrat is viewed more positive than a democratic socialist, which is why I hate why Bernie started this trend of mislabeling himself as a democratic socialist when he’s not one. When Bernie says what being a democratic socialist means (aka what being a social democrat means), that’s when people realize that it’s not so scary. So I’m not too worried about Trump going after the term. If he tries to argue Venezuela or something, that argument has been shot down time and time again. The social democrats can just point towards countries like Norway or Denmark which have been massively successful with the kind of policies they want to implement in the US. People will take notice of that. Bernie is changing the narrative of socialism which is causing America to view socialism just as universal healthcare, free college tuition, raising taxes on the rich and corporations. Which is massively popular. Are they viewing socialism in the wrong way? Some what. Like I said though, the way they view it, is popular amongst the people. Which helps the candidates supporting it. bernie is 2000% hiding his power level though and i have no doubt he's more of a leftist than he makes himself out to be |
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Post by jimmalone on Feb 24, 2019 12:25:34 GMT
As a term per se it's a positive one surely.
The way how the Republicans can use it in the election campaign will be negative for the democrats though.
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Post by hugobolso on Feb 24, 2019 16:31:21 GMT
In my country the Socialist rules, and is a disaster.-
I don't believe in Socialism, because socialst are denialist by nature.-
In Fact there is a 1985 Bernie Sanders video, in which he praised the Cuban Castrist regim.
That's the Real Bernie Stalin.-
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Post by hugobolso on Feb 24, 2019 16:32:27 GMT
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Film Socialism
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Post by Film Socialism on Feb 24, 2019 17:06:59 GMT
In my country the Socialist rules, and is a disaster.- I don't believe in Socialism, because socialst are denialist by nature.- In Fact there is a 1985 Bernie Sanders video, in which he praised the Cuban Castrist regim. That's the Real Bernie Stalin.- bc castro did pretty well for his country considering the conditions it was under not only as a colonized state but also as an embargoed one due to cold war politics. cuba/castro are not perfect by any means and i think the criminality of homosexuality and castro's personal treatment of women were both really shitty (among other things) but i also can't pretend like that's a unique phenomenon among this single communist country. |
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Post by hugobolso on Feb 24, 2019 21:07:47 GMT
In my country the Socialist rules, and is a disaster.- I don't believe in Socialism, because socialst are denialist by nature.- In Fact there is a 1985 Bernie Sanders video, in which he praised the Cuban Castrist regim. That's the Real Bernie Stalin.- bc castro did pretty well for his country considering the conditions it was under not only as a colonized state but also as an embargoed one due to cold war politics. cuba/castro are not perfect by any means and i think the criminality of homosexuality and castro's personal treatment of women were both really shitty (among other things) but i also can't pretend like that's a unique phenomenon among this single communist country. Cuba under Batista was richer than Puerto Rico. And Cubans average people lived much better than most of the rest of Latín América and even Europe. www.elpais.com.uy/economia-y-mercado/cuba-despues-revolucion.html |
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Post by IceTruckDexter on Feb 24, 2019 21:43:24 GMT
Negative.
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Post by IceTruckDexter on Feb 24, 2019 21:45:26 GMT
As a term per se it's a positive one surely. The way how the Republicans can use it in the election campaign will be negative for the democrats though. As a term per se, any type of socialism is negative. |
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Film Socialism
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Post by Film Socialism on Feb 24, 2019 22:33:06 GMT
As a term per se it's a positive one surely. The way how the Republicans can use it in the election campaign will be negative for the democrats though. As a term per se, any type of socialism is negative. coming in here to get btfo'd by our resident demsucc again i see |
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Post by Film Socialism on Feb 24, 2019 22:37:46 GMT
bc castro did pretty well for his country considering the conditions it was under not only as a colonized state but also as an embargoed one due to cold war politics. cuba/castro are not perfect by any means and i think the criminality of homosexuality and castro's personal treatment of women were both really shitty (among other things) but i also can't pretend like that's a unique phenomenon among this single communist country. Cuba under Batista was richer than Puerto Rico. And Cubans average people lived much better than most of the rest of Latín América and even Europe. www.elpais.com.uy/economia-y-mercado/cuba-despues-revolucion.htmlsite is paywalled but i'm not sure you can say average cubans lived better than most of the rest of latin america as a positive for pre-revoultionary cuba given how most of latin america was heavily subjugated at that time, and i don't really see any evidence that they lived better than europeans on average, only in the actual rich cities. in general, if a revolution gains substantial support among the masses (enough to topple the existing government and social doctrines), i tend to assume that it probably had some reason to occur and not just be well-off champagne socialists having an old weekend revolution |
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Post by hugobolso on Feb 24, 2019 23:40:20 GMT
site is paywalled but i'm not sure you can say average cubans lived better than most of the rest of latin america as a positive for pre-revoultionary cuba given how most of latin america was heavily subjugated at that time, and i don't really see any evidence that they lived better than europeans on average, only in the actual rich cities. in general, if a revolution gains substantial support among the masses (enough to topple the existing government and social doctrines), i tend to assume that it probably had some reason to occur and not just be well-off champagne socialists having an old weekend revolution No at all during Fulgencio Batista regime (1940-59) Latin America people lived better than Europe, because Eastern Europe suffer first WW2 and then Postwar. Several people died in Europe of hunger. Even worse things happened in Eastern Europe. Latin American Zenith was around 1945-1950. Things started to collapse with the Marshall Plan aka European Recovery Program, and the European Union first BENELUX and then Western European Union.- The Western European Union destroyed economically Latin America. Even that, Cuba was one of the richest countries in Latin American, was in top 3 of the most alphabetized and in health care.- Being US favourite Holiday vacation trip, helped Cuba a lot,if we compare with another countries like Uruguay or Argentina.- |
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Post by tobias on Feb 25, 2019 11:49:13 GMT
I would assume it's viewed negatively in America but it's only a label. Socialism in general is a bit of a cookie-cutter term because it's used about all kinds of different factions and beliefs by different people. This is not a modern trend btw. Even if you go all the way back to 1848 to the communist manifesto Marx and Engels describe different kinds of socialists, some of which they see as their enemies.
In european countries I think the only parties that openly use "democratic socialism" are the left-most relevant parties if any. But then again, I don't think this is terribly relevant, what Sanders says counts for more than a label and ultimately if you really fear some radical shift (which I don't think anyone does for real), Sander's hands are still bound by congress.
I think what really plays into Trumps hands is focussing primarily on running a dirt-campaign and not adressing the precarious situation of millions of Americans - just like Clinton did. The advantage Sanders has is that among the current candidates he's by far the least prone to play stupid games (and win stupid prices) like this. Instead he tends to be relatively focussed on actual issues, many of which are really popular. In a Trump vs. Sanders campaign Trump has to campaign on the issues which is not his strong point and could well end up making him look totally ridiculous. Clinton's personality campaign played excactly to Trump's strengths and when he talked about poverty and unemployment he was virtually uncontested, whereas Sanders would push him on that (I mean he played that card already just after the election - "ok, I agree with Trump, let's rebuild the crmbling infrastructure, here, vote on my bill I propose in Senate!").
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dazed
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Post by dazed on Feb 26, 2019 2:55:13 GMT
I would assume it's viewed negatively in America but it's only a label. Socialism in general is a bit of a cookie-cutter term because it's used about all kinds of different factions and beliefs by different people. This is not a modern trend btw. Even if you go all the way back to 1848 to the communist manifesto Marx and Engels describe different kinds of socialists, some of which they see as their enemies.
In european countries I think the only parties that openly use "democratic socialism" are the left-most relevant parties if any. But then again, I don't think this is terribly relevant, what Sanders says counts for more than a label and ultimately if you really fear some radical shift (which I don't think anyone does for real), Sander's hands are still bound by congress.
I think what really plays into Trumps hands is focussing primarily on running a dirt-campaign and not adressing the precarious situation of millions of Americans - just like Clinton did. The advantage Sanders has is that among the current candidates he's by far the least prone to play stupid games (and win stupid prices) like this. Instead he tends to be relatively focussed on actual issues, many of which are really popular. In a Trump vs. Sanders campaign Trump has to campaign on the issues which is not his strong point and could well end up making him look totally ridiculous. Clinton's personality campaign played excactly to Trump's strengths and when he talked about poverty and unemployment he was virtually uncontested, whereas Sanders would push him on that (I mean he played that card already just after the election - "ok, I agree with Trump, let's rebuild the crmbling infrastructure, here, vote on my bill I propose in Senate!").
Yesss, especially to your whole last paragraph. That’s what I’ve been saying. People try to beat Trump on personal attacks that have nothing to do with policy issues, and they’ll lose that battle every single time. Bernie is all policy. Trump can try and personally attack him all he wants and yet Bernie will jump to the same old rhetoric of medicare for all, going after Wall Street and big corporations, etc. Bernie would wipe him across the floor on a debate stage. |
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Post by mrimpossible on Feb 28, 2019 18:52:51 GMT
I believe in a mixed economy. If that’s socialism then fine idc. I think it’s become a buzz word to trigger right wingers. I mean from what I learned from school is there’s basically 3 economic systems. Capitalism, Socialism and Communism. Socialism is in the middle of the two extremes.
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Post by hugobolso1 on Mar 1, 2019 21:56:29 GMT
I believe in a mixed economy. If that’s socialism then fine idc. I think it’s become a buzz word to trigger right wingers. I mean from what I learned from school is there’s basically 3 economic systems. Capitalism, Socialism and Communism. Socialism is in the middle of the two extremes. Not exactly. Socialism is by manyy the way to go to Communism. |
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