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Post by stephen on Mar 19, 2018 17:40:04 GMT
Guinness having Star Wars probably is what propelled him to that "best known and loved" label. Olivier didn't really have anything quite on that level in terms of pop culture resonance (even with his Shakespeare works). Ironically, the role that Guinness probably loathed more than any other of his is the one that cemented him as the most beloved actor of his generation. This is very true. Things could have been very different if Olivier had gotten Brando's role in The Godfather. And Olivier was Francis Ford Coppola's other choice for the role of Vito Corleone. Technically, Olivier could have pulled it off to an extent, but it's hard to imagine without Brando. But that would have been the pop culture film to keep Olivier relevant to modern audiences, beyond being a legendary theatrical name that people keep having to be told was one the greatest. I've seen a few interviews where even Day-Lewis seemed kind of dismissive of Olivier's acting technique, claiming he didn't "get it" and could have been a better actor if he understood the benefits of method acting. Though other times, I've seen Day-Lewis cite Olivier as an inspiration, so he seems to have a Jekyll and Hyde attitude towards the man. It's still so bloody weird to me that Olivier (the quintessential British actor) was ever considered to play Vito Corleone. I can imagine him playing a cultured gangster in the vein of Paul Newman in Road to Perdition, but that's still so wildly radical from his first choice of Brando: different ages, different backgrounds, different methods, different builds, different everything save for status within the acting community. Makes me wonder if he ever actively considered anyone besides Brando, and Olivier was the name he threw out as "insurance." By the time Day-Lewis rolled onto the scene, Olivier's brand of acting was seen as outdated and not as "cool." He was part of the generation of British actors who wanted to mold the '70s American style with British sensibilities, so he probably regarded Olivier's style as stuffy and confining (or not much of a challenge, perhaps?). But Day-Lewis has gone on record saying that he finds his method (which isn't really "method" as it traditionally is; DDL's prep style is unique in and of itself, and people who try to ape it don't come off quite as well) much easier to do than simply "switching it on/off" like the old guys could. But I'm willing to bet that Day-Lewis respected the hell out of Olivier; they even (obliquely) worked together in The Bounty.
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Post by pacinoyes on Apr 12, 2018 11:00:50 GMT
Actually, I realized last night I guess that I maybe ranked Spacey a bit too high in the opening post because for some reason I thought he won an Emmy for House of Cards (he didn't) - he did have a fairly distinguished theater run (one Supporting Tony, one Lead Olivier) and a limited but still successful 2 time Oscar nominated/winning film career.......but that poses a rather interesting question:
Do you rank an actor's TV career higher for executing one character like Spacey mostly did (he did have other solid TV success also it should be noted) or for executing several performances of note? What about someone like Cranston who is a Lead Tony winner (and Lead Olivier winner now - 2 unique roles), an Emmy winner for an all-time TV series performance, and some in-roads with film success so far?
I don't think he's been mentioned yet in this thread - not an all-timer but as a late bloomer that's pretty impressive.....
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Post by pacinoyes on Apr 12, 2018 11:13:33 GMT
Judy Davis, too - her stage work is mostly in Sydney, though. That's a good call what about Phillip Seymour Hoffman when he was alive. (The great) PSH only appeared on TV once I think in the very fine Empire Falls (Emmy nominee) and I saw him on stage where he was very memorable so he has 2 of the 3 (stage/film) definitely - he never won a Tony Award but was up against tough competition every time he was nodded.......
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Post by stephen on Apr 12, 2018 12:55:37 GMT
Do you rank an actor's TV career higher for executing one character like Spacey mostly did (he did have other solid TV success also it should be noted) or for executing several performances of note? What about someone like Cranston who is a Lead Tony winner (and Lead Olivier winner now - 2 unique roles), an Emmy winner for an all-time TV series performance, and some in-roads with film success so far? I suppose I'd rank someone with multiple successes higher if only because they showed a wider range and command. Cranston had Walter White and Hal, but he also had LBJ and Dr. Tim Whatley. All of those are radically different performances from one another, and the first three I'd argue are among the very best in their respective categories. I'd definitely consider Cranston in contention for being one of the very best actors working, even if his film work is spotty, but he's just now capitalizing on his successes to the point that he can start doing more leading film parts. I'd argue he probably would've won in 2015 if DiCaprio hadn't been in the mix, if only because he was still riding the Breaking Bad wave and had just nabbed the Tony, and he is insanely well-liked in the business.
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Post by pupdurcs on Apr 12, 2018 13:32:47 GMT
I think Cranston's film work just doesn't rate highly enough to put him high in the conversation. Yes, he got a very generous oscar nod for Trumbo, but that was in part with all the goodwill in the world for his work on Breaking Bad. The industry really wants him to be this great movie actor because of all that residual respect for his non-film work, and it's not really happening. All the qualities that have maybe helped him excel on stage and on the small screen, seem slightly diminished or maybe even a bit too broad/hammy on the big screen. He's a great actor, but not every great actor is cut out to be a great movie actor (see multiple Tony winners like Brian Dennehy and Nathan Lane)
I highly doubt Cranston was runner up to Dicaprio either in 2015. Unless you are someone like Denzel in several instances, being a lone nominee in Best Actor for your production usually means you are a filler nomination. Cranston was filler. Dicaprio was preordained as overdue and didn't really have serious competition, but if I had to guess runner-ups, probably Damon for The Martian, as his film got several nominations across the board (including Best Pic), then Fassbender, who was the touted favorite, till Steve Jobs bombed at the box office. I think even the much disliked Eddie Redmayne was probably ahead of Cranston as well.
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Post by pupdurcs on Apr 12, 2018 13:44:18 GMT
Also, surprised Viola Davis hasn't been mentioned. Emmy Winner, Oscar winner and two Tonys.
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Post by pacinoyes on Apr 12, 2018 17:26:06 GMT
Viola Davis is one of the strangest triple crown winners - the first African American to do it (I think?) which should make her more overtly celebrated but her Oscar and one of her Tony's are for the same role - which is fine but not common (Paul Scofield, etc).
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Post by stephen on Apr 12, 2018 17:55:58 GMT
Also, surprised Viola Davis hasn't been mentioned. Emmy Winner, Oscar winner and two Tonys. I always forget that she won an Emmy. And at least in that particular regard, it feels to me like Davis won there because of her name and her status within the industry more than the work itself. I certainly think she's one of the most respected actresses alive (arguably second behind Streep right now; I've seen numerous comparisons between the two ladies over the last decade) in and out of the industry.
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Post by stephen on Apr 12, 2018 18:06:20 GMT
I think Cranston's film work just doesn't rate highly enough to put him high in the conversation. Yes, he got a very generous oscar nod for Trumbo, but that was in part with all the goodwill in the world for his work on Breaking Bad. The industry really wants him to be this great movie actor because of all that residual respect for his non-film work, and it's not really happening. All the qualities that have maybe helped him excel on stage and on the small screen, seem slightly diminished or maybe even a bit too broad/hammy on the big screen. He's a great actor, but not every great actor is cut out to be a great movie actor (see multiple Tony winners like Brian Dennehy and Nathan Lane) I highly doubt Cranston was runner up to Dicaprio either in 2015. Unless you are someone like Denzel in several instances, being a lone nominee in Best Actor for your production usually means you are a filler nomination. Cranston was filler. Dicaprio was preordained as overdue and didn't really have serious competition, but if I had to guess runner-ups, probably Damon for The Martian, as his film got several nominations across the board (including Best Pic), then Fassbender, who was the touted favorite, till Steve Jobs bombed at the box office. I think even the much disliked Eddie Redmayne was probably ahead of Cranston as well. Fassbender's film greatly underperformed, Damon was fighting for that last slot, and Redmayne had just won. Obviously the person who gets in fifth at this point changes the race, but Cranston was constantly appearing in the industry prizes and he was riding extremely high on the Breaking Bad/All the Way wave. Trumbo may not have been loved outside of him, but Cranston adulation was at a fever pitch and it isn't inconceivable that he nets support from voters who are big fans of the man. Plus it's an outwardly showy character, even more than the others. Obviously we'll never know because a.) we don't know who would've been the fifth nominee that year and b.) DiCaprio was unstoppable and none of the other guys got any traction. But Cranston's consistent appearances despite a middling reaction to his film (coupled with its early release) shows passion for him, passion that I don't think the other guys had.
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Post by thomasjerome on Apr 12, 2018 18:11:00 GMT
John Lithgow needs to get mention here.
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Post by Mattsby on Apr 12, 2018 18:32:24 GMT
John Lithgow needs to get mention here. I was just going to mention him. 6 Emmy wins (as many as Cranston and Alda) - I haven't seen 3rd Rock. 2 Tony wins - and besides the '90s he's been doing theater work practically every year of his career. 2 Oscar noms - so he lacks in the "film" category though most of his best perfs aren't what the Academy would go for anyway (besides recently in Love is Strange): like the De Palma's or Ricochet where he's particularly unhinged and deranged...
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Post by pacinoyes on May 2, 2018 10:33:09 GMT
The "Macbeth" thread got me thinking about McKellan - has a Tony (Amadeus) and many many distinguished UK productions - possibly the best recent and most acclaimed Lear (and Macbeth in the 70s) and film and stage Richard III - distinguished multiple Emmy's nodded TV stuff and some ace stuff not nodded though (BBC's The Dresser) - not a huge film career but could have legitimately won lead and a known actor in film.......and is of course "in" some huge films as well.
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Post by pacinoyes on May 6, 2018 23:56:31 GMT
I re-watched HBO's Sunset Limited today which I quite like, a fine version of the play starring Tommy Lee Jones and Samuel L. Jackson.
It reminded me that not everything done on cable has to be a big event play like Angels in America or The Normal Heart etc. There's really an opportunity to do small actor/actress showcases like this. Mike Nichols "Wit" is another example.
If someone would make this more of a priority on cable networks you may see some great crossover opportunities which we seem like we're missing at the moment.
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Post by stephen on May 7, 2018 0:13:24 GMT
I re-watched HBO's Sunset Limited today which I quite like, a fine version of the play starring Tommy Lee Jones and Samuel L. Jackson. It reminded me that not everything done on cable has to be a big event play like Angels in America or The Normal Heart etc. There's really an opportunity to do small actor/actress showcases like this. Mike Nichols "Wit" is another example. If someone would make this more of a priority on cable networks you may see some great crossover opportunities which we seem like we're missing at the moment. Speaking of, we forget how accomplished Tommy Lee Jones is. The guy has some strong television performances to his credit (including the definitive Howard Hughes), some very fine film turns, and he's done stage work (including stints on Broadway way back in the day). He's such a duplicitously under-sung performer.
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Post by pacinoyes on May 7, 2018 23:31:27 GMT
I consider his performance in The Executioners Song one of the major TV turns before this new "Golden Age" of TV the last 20 years or so. I know many people haven't seen Sunset Limited and I know this is a long scene but watch what a clever way he directs this scene playing with perspective, character's space and distance, cutting away and back and judicious use of characters in the frame at the same time.
It's a play, there is no effort to turn it into a movie, but with sly directing choices, fine performances, great text and how it is staged you can really make the material take off. He is a fascinating performer and a guy that came close to being a two time Academy Award Winner.
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Post by stephen on May 7, 2018 23:59:55 GMT
I consider his performance in The Executioners Song one of the major TV turns before this new "Golden Age" of TV the last 20 years or so. I know many people haven't seen Sunset Limited and I know this is a long scene but watch what a clever way he directs this scene playing with perspective, character's space and distance, cutting away and back and judicious use of characters in the frame at the same time. It's a play, there is no effort to turn it into a movie, but with sly directing choices, fine performances, great text and how it is staged you can really make the material take off. He is a fascinating performer and a guy that came close to being a two time Academy Award Winner. I think it's definitely the most underrated McCarthy adaptation, and certainly one of the most accomplished stage-to-screen adaptations I've ever seen. Despite taking place in a single room and largely being an unbroken story over that time, it still feels very cinematic, and Jackson/Jones are colossal in it. It really is like watching two heavyweight boxers slugging it out for ten rounds.
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Post by pacinoyes on May 11, 2018 11:55:25 GMT
To add another current actors name to this list - Benedict Cumberbatch debuts in his Patrick Melrose mini-series this weekend and a possible 2nd Emmy for him (he's a perennial nominee, a force on TV). He doesn't have a Tony (no appearances) but does have an Olivier (for his great Danny Boyle's Frankenstein turn which I saw in its filmed version show in movie theaters).
He has played a much praised Hamlet, would make a fine Macbeth you would think...........meanwhile his movie career has started to turn into, watch me cash in, and appear in comic book stuff etc.
He's only 42.......lots to be done......but I'm not sure how he'd go about doing it(?)
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Post by pacinoyes on May 13, 2018 13:25:27 GMT
In praise of Jeremy Irons who hasn't been mentioned yet, officially opening in Long Days Journey into Night now @ BAM, on a theater career he's let slide a bit too long (he consistently does it, but not much risk in it lately). He has though at different times made an impression on all 3 - stage/TV/Film.
To me, the best English speaking actor of the 80s (an unbelievable, historically great run into the early 90s), a best actor Tony and best actor Oscar winner (not many who have those), a triple crown winner (no lead actor Emmy, but in support) and this year may win a Grammy too.
The best British film actor of the pre-DDL/Oldman emergence imo and has it all over those guys for career stage work too. I can't rank him as GOAT level but in the modern era ......on a close level as McKellan (who towers over him on stage) who I mentioned in this thread - and a good bit younger too.
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Post by stephen on May 13, 2018 13:37:42 GMT
Irons definitely deserves more credit than he gets -- I think his tendency to accept schlock in the Dungeons & Dragons mold has worked against him, much as it did with Ben Kingsley . . . although unlike Sir Ben, Irons feels like he doesn't take himself quite so seriously, but his general air and presence (seriously, has there ever lived an actor laden with more gravitas?) make us think of him as far more stuffy and pretentious than he actually is. He also comes off a bit of a dinosaur in his thinking, which doesn't help his cache with the younger crowd.
But yeah, Irons has an all-timer of a film performance in Dead Ringers, a nevertheless incredible Best Actor-winning turn two years later, an iconic voice performance in his Scar, a handful of strong turns over the years (personally, he's my favorite Alfred Pennyworth), an award-winning television resurgence with Elizabeth I and a terrific Henry IV in The Hollow Crown (even if Simon Russell Beale blew everyone off the screen with that one), and by all accounts his stage work is impeccable. We think of him as an Olivier or a Gielgud acolyte, but I think he's bolder and more raw than those guys, even if he's somewhat "old hat" now. Old Reliable, that's what they oughta call him.
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Post by pacinoyes on May 15, 2018 18:41:15 GMT
Also not yet mentioned is Robert Duvall, a guy who with a little different luck maybe would be much more obvious here:
He could be a legitimate 2 time BA winner - robbed for The Apostle (he's already a 7 time nominee), could have been a multiple Emmy winner (he did win one, and in any other year would have won for Lonesome Dove), and a guy in the 60s who was a major Eddie Carbone and the originator of Teach in American Buffalo on Broadway though he didn't continue on stage much after (at all?).
Now I'm not a huge fan of his in comparison of the "big 4" America film actors of the 70s but he's close (I rank him and Hackman a tier down and that's not a put-down) but with a couple of different breaks he may appear more major than you might first think. No Shakespeare or classical roles but he is a player in all 3 mediums.
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Post by pacinoyes on May 18, 2018 18:31:40 GMT
Switching back to a British actor, probably the leading one in this category who is living (arguably) - Anthony Hopkins. Two time Lead Emmy winner and some other recent and memorable TV work, major theatrical career in the UK, distinguished film career and Lead Actor win of course.
I mention him because I just watched Shadowlands and that got me thinking. Has an interesting position - a level of acclaim across all 3 that probably nobody can match of his UK peers - but not a level of dominance in any of them (TV you could argue Cumberbatch and others), global theater Rylance, etc.
With his Lear forthcoming an opportunity to boost that TV resume......fame of course came to him late, he was mid-50s (I think?) for Silence Of The Lambs, and while he was well known prior, that was a different level.
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Post by stephen on May 18, 2018 18:38:43 GMT
If there is a living heir apparent to Olivier, it's Hopkins. Not simply because he was an Olivier acolyte (and gifted mimic of Larry's; he even dubbed for the late actor when they reinstated the "snails and oysters" scene in Spartacus and it's dead-on-balls accurate), but because he pretty much brings the same energy and charts a similar career path to an almost scary degree. Unlike Branagh, who seems so desperate to plot the exact same course through the exact same waters as Olivier (and often with mixed results), Hopkins carves out his own path while still showing respect and fealty to his old friend and mentor. Funnily enough, I think Hopkins also fuses some Alec Guinness into his portrayals as well, creating a fascinating hybrid that still nevertheless feels distinctly his own flavor.
With that said, Hopkins makes it look so easy that we take him for granted, much as we do with Jeremy Irons. Unlike Irons (to an extent) and Ben Kingsley, however, Hopkins is quintessentially down-to-earth, level-headed and relatable; you can tell that he takes great joy in what he does and knows that he is supremely fortunate to be in the position he's in, and as such, he still shows that he has fun and tries with every performance. Even when he plays depraved sorts, he brings a classiness to the proceedings that makes you just like the dude. Jeremy Irons has gravitas, but Tony Hopkins is just . . . well, cool.
I will say that his cinematic offerings kinda dropped a bit in quality these last few years, but he always brings his A-game, and whenever he lucks into a quality project like Westworld, he's just dynamite. I am always delighted to see a new Hopkins joint.
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Post by pacinoyes on Jun 10, 2018 0:06:11 GMT
With the Tony Awards tomorrow night and Emmy nods soon a couple of mentions, Nathan Lane going for his 3rd Tony Award (a lock I'd say), quite an achievement. He has Daytime Emmy's and some fine TV work in guest turns.
Also, Richard Burton would be one to consider too - no real imprint on TV but a Tony winner and 7 time Oscar nominee - a very great talent.....wasted a lot of it, but not all of it - we should talk of him more.......... I just watched his searing farewell performance in "1984" - he left on a great note.
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Post by sirjeremy on Jun 10, 2018 9:41:40 GMT
I'm surprised that Helen Mirren and Judi Dench haven't been mentioned yet.
She's only 33, so just starting her career compared to the other names here, but I just wanted to mention Carey Mulligan, who's done really well since making her professional debut in 2004.
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Post by pacinoyes on Jun 10, 2018 12:05:22 GMT
Mulligan is a good one and has already done work across all 3. She seems very picky about projects she doesn't just take anything it seems.
Mirren was mentioned in passing in my opening post - but what's really interesting is in that opening post, I asked if Streep's film achievements almost by themselves put her in a different class - 2 Emmy's and some impressive stage work, but a huge film career of course, but now, I'm not so sure of that because:
Mirren/Dench/Smith/Glenda Jackson/Redgrave make it arguable which of those British actresses is in fact the most distinguished across all 3 mediums and then, by extension where they rank relative to Streep too. Tonight with Glenda Jackson winning (unless there's some sort of disastrous surprise) will have many people calling her the worlds greatest actress I suppose - her re-emergence in the theater (how cool is that?) the last few years with King Lear and Three Tall Women almost by itself makes this whole discussion more relevant and timely.
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