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Post by HELENA MARIA on Feb 16, 2018 9:49:15 GMT
Are you For or Against Gun Control ? And why ?
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Post by mhynson27 on Feb 16, 2018 12:41:22 GMT
FOR because my country is proof that it can work.
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urbanpatrician
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Post by urbanpatrician on Feb 16, 2018 14:09:00 GMT
Against. I'm not for doing nothing about it, but people comparing their gun-less countries to the U.S. sounds silly to me, it's like they think they can tell us how to create a more ideal society. Also... before the internet-sensitive attacks me... (or her rather), this is probably the only time I've ever agreed with Tomi Lahren:
"@tomilahren Can the Left let the families grieve for even 24 hours before they push their anti-gun and anti-gunowner agenda? My goodness. This isn't about a gun it's about another lunatic"
It has much less to do with guns than it has to do with certain luney people. I think people-regulating is one of the most underrated talking points in the media. The fact that it's never talked, yet guns always get the blame makes me wonder why people ignore the real source of the issue.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2018 14:47:12 GMT
Against. Well, I guess it depends on how you define gun control. I'm okay with background checks and prohibiting mentally unstable people from buying guns... but that's about the extent of it. And the idea of a total ban on guns is ridiculous.
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Zeb31
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Post by Zeb31 on Feb 16, 2018 15:24:46 GMT
Of course, but not only will it not happen anytime soon, gun control also wouldn't completely suffice on its own, because a considerable contingent of Americans have this ass-backwards mentality according to which their entire sense of worth and patriotism is innately connected to guns and to an Ammendment whose original context and meaning most of them completely ignore, and which is freely exploited and distorted according to convenience. It's impossible to take other countries' realities and apply them wholesale to the US (as in, "it worked in ____, it'll work for Americans just as well") because it's a totally different context, and their gun culture runs much deeper than mere legislation could ever reach. You'd think the piles of dead men, women and children who are mowed down every year would be enough to spark some change and convince them that more thorough background checks and a bare minimum of responsibility and control would be desirable, but at this point it seems to have basically been diluted to white noise. With every new mass shooting, it's always the same story, always the same debate, and nothing ever changes. And I don't think it will, because those deaths are a price that a lot of people (including the majority of the elected representatives, apparently) are just fine paying. It's part of the country's culture. School shootings are as American as apple pie.
Also, about the Tomi Lahren tweet, cry me a big fat fucking river. It's always about another fucking lunatic, and it's always perverted for political gain. The same people who are out there right now pretending to give two shits about the poor poor families of the poor poor victims and their divine right to ~*grieve without having their loss be politicized*~ don't waste a single second to cry HURR DURR RELIGION OF PEACE HARHAR whenever it's a Muslim terrorist shooting innocent people up. That phony righteousness and compassion flies right out the window whenever the killer isn't a white American; then suddenly they run out of "it's just one lunatic, let the families grieve in peace!" excuses to make.
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urbanpatrician
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Post by urbanpatrician on Feb 16, 2018 15:43:24 GMT
Of course, but not only will it not happen anytime soon, gun control also wouldn't completely suffice on its own, because a considerable contingent of Americans have this ass-backwards mentality according to which their entire sense of worth and patriotism is innately connected to guns and to an Ammendment whose original context and meaning most of them completely ignore, and which is freely exploited and distorted according to convenience. It's impossible to take other countries' realities and apply them wholesale to the US (as in, "it worked in ____, it'll work for Americans just as well") because it's a totally different context, and their gun culture runs much deeper than mere legislation could ever reach. You'd think the piles of dead men, women and children who are mowed down every year would be enough to spark some change and convince them that more thorough background checks and a bare minimum of responsibility and control would be desirable, but at this point it seems to have basically been diluted to white noise. With every new mass shooting, it's always the same story, always the same debate, and nothing ever changes. And I don't think it will, because those deaths are a price that a lot of people (including the majority of the elected representatives, apparently) are just fine paying. It's part of the country's culture. School shootings are as American as apple pie. Also, about the Tomi Lahren tweet, cry me a big fat fucking river. It's always about another fucking lunatic, and it's always perverted for political gain. The same people who are out there right now pretending to give two shits about the poor poor families of the poor poor victims and their divine right to ~*grieve without having their loss be politicized*~ don't waste a single second to cry HURR DURR RELIGION OF PEACE HARHAR whenever it's a Muslim terrorist shooting innocent people up. That phony righteousness and compassion flies right out the window whenever the killer isn't a white American; then suddenly they run out of "it's just one lunatic, let the families grieve in peace!" excuses to make. Only you don't seem to get it. Nobody is making any excuses. We're simply trying to identify the source of the issue. It comes down to this: you think it's about guns. I think it's about certain luney people. We fundamentally differ. You're going on a lot about things that nobody has brought up yet... including race, which I don't think anyone on this thread is thinking is relevant, and I have yet to take any notice to the color of the shooter's skin. The dude's last name is Cruz, also. Dude could be Hispanic too. I could argue with you, but this sounds like another Left vs Right heated contest. Neither of us are willing to stray our course a little bit, so I don't know what more to say.
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Post by Sharbs on Feb 16, 2018 15:44:11 GMT
All for, more vetting is the obvious and first step, but I'd be for a total ban of auto/semi-automatic weaponry. It's not needed to defend yourself, sorry. Like Zeb said, when that amendment was writ wrat wrote in a different context and a different time when they were still firing off muskets, not AR-15's. They aren't comparable and it should be revised.
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Post by mhynson27 on Feb 16, 2018 15:44:15 GMT
Against. Well, I guess it depends on how you define gun control. I'm okay with background checks and prohibiting mentally unstable people from buying guns... but that's about the extent of it. And the idea of a total ban on guns is ridiculous. How about if someone starts to become mentally unstable after they have already bought the gun?
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Zeb31
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Post by Zeb31 on Feb 16, 2018 15:57:41 GMT
It comes down to this: you think it's about guns. I think it's about certain luney people. We fundamentally differ. I never disagreed with this, though. I even said it with those exact same words: It's always about another fucking lunatic, and it's always perverted for political gain.
Like you said, it very much is about luney people, and I agree with your original post when you point out that mental health is a huge component of the issue that is very often brushed aside. That's actually my entire point, that gun control alone won't magically make the problem go away because it's much more complex than that. Yes, I brought up a lot of topics that hadn't been mentioned in this thread, but I did it because they're relevant to the discussion at large and Maria Helena's OP is a general poll, not necessarily a discussion on this one shooting in particular. I'm not looking to get into a heated contest because like I said, I respect and agree with a lot of your points.
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Post by Martin Stett on Feb 16, 2018 16:00:10 GMT
Look, something has to be done. Anything. If you call it gun control, if you call it mental health checks, I don't give a damn. The fact is, it is too damn easy for people to get shitloads of weapons and go on a rampage. In my personal opinion, I'm for a ban on automatic and semi-automatic weaponry, but the fact is that this won't happen unless the constitution is rewritten, and that won't happen unless someone shoots up Congress or the Senate so it isn't abstract to them anymore. And probably not then, because the shooter will be a registered Republican/Democrat, and thus it will be the fault of his political party.
But anything needs to be done. Anything at all. Anything is better than just giving a RPG to a guy that posts on his social media page "my dream is to blow up gays," and the same goes for some guy that can buy semi-automatics (THAT'S PLURAL, FOLKS!!!) while posting that he wants to shoot up a school.
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urbanpatrician
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Post by urbanpatrician on Feb 16, 2018 16:08:12 GMT
It comes down to this: you think it's about guns. I think it's about certain luney people. We fundamentally differ. I never disagreed with this, though. I even said it with those exact same words: It's always about another fucking lunatic, and it's always perverted for political gain.
Like you said, it very much is about luney people, and I agree with your original post when you point out that mental health is a huge component of the issue that is very often brushed aside. That's actually my entire point, that gun control alone won't magically make the problem go away because it's much more complex than that. Yes, I brought up a lot of topics that hadn't been mentioned in this thread, but I did it because they're relevant to the discussion at large and Maria Helena's OP is a general poll, not necessarily a discussion on this one shooting in particular. I'm not looking to get into a heated contest because like I said, I respect and agree with a lot of your points. Fair enough. I do think backwards-people are contributing to our society being in constant disconnect: the backward-ness vs forward-ness of our country is causing an inbalance. I also think that, despite the fact that you may think this is an unpleasant point - that a great portion of Muslims definitely belong to that "backwards" camp as much as the redneck who lives in the woods with a houseful of guns. I'm not dismissing guns as a non-issue altogether, btw. I don't think Lahren is necessarily wrong, though I guess she was more concerned about the berating the Left, but I do think that even you and I can agree that one part of her point is correct: society (the left and the right both) don't mention those crazy insane people being a source of the gun violence issue enough.
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Post by dazed on Feb 16, 2018 16:18:12 GMT
Of course, but not only will it not happen anytime soon, gun control also wouldn't completely suffice on its own, because a considerable contingent of Americans have this ass-backwards mentality according to which their entire sense of worth and patriotism is innately connected to guns and to an Ammendment whose original context and meaning most of them completely ignore, and which is freely exploited and distorted according to convenience. It's impossible to take other countries' realities and apply them wholesale to the US (as in, "it worked in ____, it'll work for Americans just as well") because it's a totally different context, and their gun culture runs much deeper than mere legislation could ever reach. You'd think the piles of dead men, women and children who are mowed down every year would be enough to spark some change and convince them that more thorough background checks and a bare minimum of responsibility and control would be desirable, but at this point it seems to have basically been diluted to white noise. With every new mass shooting, it's always the same story, always the same debate, and nothing ever changes. And I don't think it will, because those deaths are a price that a lot of people (including the majority of the elected representatives, apparently) are just fine paying. It's part of the country's culture. School shootings are as American as apple pie. Also, about the Tomi Lahren tweet, cry me a big fat fucking river. It's always about another fucking lunatic, and it's always perverted for political gain. The same people who are out there right now pretending to give two shits about the poor poor families of the poor poor victims and their divine right to ~*grieve without having their loss be politicized*~ don't waste a single second to cry HURR DURR RELIGION OF PEACE HARHAR whenever it's a Muslim terrorist shooting innocent people up. That phony righteousness and compassion flies right out the window whenever the killer isn't a white American; then suddenly they run out of "it's just one lunatic, let the families grieve in peace!" excuses to make. Only you don't seem to get it. Nobody is making any excuses. We're simply trying to identify the source of the issue. It comes down to this: you think it's about guns. I think it's about certain luney people. We fundamentally differ. You're going on a lot about things that nobody has brought up yet... including race, which I don't think anyone on this thread is thinking is relevant, and I have yet to take any notice to the color of the shooter's skin. The dude's last name is Cruz, also. Dude could be Hispanic too. I could argue with you, but this sounds like another Left vs Right heated contest. Neither of us are willing to stray our course a little bit, so I don't know what more to say. Did Tomi say anything when Trump (who she clearly loves) signed a bill that undid the restrictions from mentally ill buying guns? She clearly made that tweet because this was a white male who was a domestic terrorist. Which doesn’t fit her agenda. It’s about both guns and people that are mentally ill. With this administration, America has somehow gone backwards on the issue. You know it’s bad when people from other countries don’t want to go to America because they’re afraid they’ll get shot. I’ve not only read this, I’ve heard people say this in my own country. Have universal background checks that are also stricter, implement a system that allows mentally ill people to not buy a gun, ban high capacity magazines, etc. I think this will help, but Zeb was right, the gun issue goes further than legislation. This also won’t happen as long as the politicans are bought by big money, in this case the NRA. A lot of Americans seem to treat their guns like it’s their pride and joy.
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urbanpatrician
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Post by urbanpatrician on Feb 16, 2018 16:33:58 GMT
Only you don't seem to get it. Nobody is making any excuses. We're simply trying to identify the source of the issue. It comes down to this: you think it's about guns. I think it's about certain luney people. We fundamentally differ. You're going on a lot about things that nobody has brought up yet... including race, which I don't think anyone on this thread is thinking is relevant, and I have yet to take any notice to the color of the shooter's skin. The dude's last name is Cruz, also. Dude could be Hispanic too. I could argue with you, but this sounds like another Left vs Right heated contest. Neither of us are willing to stray our course a little bit, so I don't know what more to say. Did Tomi say anything when Trump (who she clearly loves) signed a bill that undid the restrictions from mentally ill buying guns? She clearly made that tweet because this was a white male who was a domestic terrorist. Which doesn’t fit her agenda. It’s about both guns and people that are mentally ill. With this administration, America has somehow gone backwards on the issue. You know it’s bad when people from other countries don’t want to go to America because they’re afraid they’ll get shot. I’ve not only read this, I’ve heard people say this in my own country. Have universal background checks that are also stricter, implement a system that allows mentally ill people to not buy a gun, ban high capacity magazines, etc. I think this will help, but Zeb was right, the gun issue goes further than legislation. This also won’t happen as long as the politicans are bought by big money, in this case the NRA. A lot of Americans seem to treat their guns like it’s their pride and joy. I don't think Trump has anything to do with this. And his administration didn't change anything already there in our gun culture. If there were restrictions in the previous administration, those were there in words only, it didn't stop the shooters from implementing Sandy Hook and Virginia Tech. I wouldn't seek to blame Obama for those though. I definitely don't agree with Trump in that area of thinking though. There's no reason the mentally ill should get mass destructive weapons. The only argument i can think of is that Trump is a proponent of the concept of a free, open economy. But that goes to irrelevance when we're dealing with people who have the mental capacity to kill a large number of people just like that. I agree with you on those restrictions. There are already some strict gun restrictions in certain states, but the problem is that some states, like Texas, seem to fall on the opposite end. Correct me if I'm wrong though, but did any of the recent shooters purchase their weapons directly?
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Post by Joaquim on Feb 16, 2018 16:34:34 GMT
All for, more vetting is the obvious and first step, but I'd be for a total ban of auto/semi-automatic weaponry. It's not needed to defend yourself, sorry. Like Zeb said, when that amendment was writ wrat wrote in a different context and a different time when they were still firing off muskets, not AR-15's. They aren't comparable and it should be revised. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puckle_gun
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Post by Martin Stett on Feb 16, 2018 16:47:39 GMT
All for, more vetting is the obvious and first step, but I'd be for a total ban of auto/semi-automatic weaponry. It's not needed to defend yourself, sorry. Like Zeb said, when that amendment was writ wrat wrote in a different context and a different time when they were still firing off muskets, not AR-15's. They aren't comparable and it should be revised. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puckle_gunNot very portable, is it. Nor concealable.
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Post by Joaquim on Feb 16, 2018 17:00:53 GMT
Not very portable, is it. Nor concealable. Not very, but still disproves the notion that only muskets were being fired off. The writers of the Constitution were fully aware of the existence of machine guns (AR-15 isn’t a machine gun though).
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Post by cherry68 on Feb 16, 2018 17:30:41 GMT
Gun control in the US differs from other countries. If you think that banning guns will prevent many deaths, I'm not sure. In December, a guy under drug effects ran over pedestrians in an Italian town with his car because he thought it was cool and he'd have become famous. These lunatics will find other ways to murder people if they won't have a gun.
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Post by dazed on Feb 16, 2018 17:35:37 GMT
Did Tomi say anything when Trump (who she clearly loves) signed a bill that undid the restrictions from mentally ill buying guns? She clearly made that tweet because this was a white male who was a domestic terrorist. Which doesn’t fit her agenda. It’s about both guns and people that are mentally ill. With this administration, America has somehow gone backwards on the issue. You know it’s bad when people from other countries don’t want to go to America because they’re afraid they’ll get shot. I’ve not only read this, I’ve heard people say this in my own country. Have universal background checks that are also stricter, implement a system that allows mentally ill people to not buy a gun, ban high capacity magazines, etc. I think this will help, but Zeb was right, the gun issue goes further than legislation. This also won’t happen as long as the politicans are bought by big money, in this case the NRA. A lot of Americans seem to treat their guns like it’s their pride and joy. I don't think Trump has anything to do with this. If there were restrictions in the previous administration, those were there in words only, it didn't stop the shooters from implementing Sandy Hook and Virginia Tech. I wouldn't seek to blame Obama for those though. I definitely don't agree with Trump in that area of thinking though. There's no reason the mentally ill should get mass destructive weapons. The only argument i can think of is that Trump is a proponent of the concept of a free, open economy. But that goes to irrelevance when we're dealing with people who have the mental capacity to kill a large number of people just like that. I agree with you on those restrictions. There are already some strict gun restrictions in certain states, but the problem is that some states, like Texas, seem to fall on the opposite end. Correct me if I'm wrong though, but did any of the recent shooters purchase their weapons directly? I do know that the GOP rolled back a regulation in the past year which made the social security administration report people that had a mental health condition, which was used in a database for eligibility in regards to buying a gun. So essentially they rolled back regulations which blocked some mentally ill people from buying guns. Yet these are the same people that say mental illness is the issue (they’re not wrong, it’s part of the issue, but it’s very hypocritical). I looked it up, and here’s an article in regards to how recent mass shooters bought their guns: www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/10/03/us/how-mass-shooters-got-their-guns.html
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Post by dazed on Feb 16, 2018 17:40:09 GMT
Gun control in the US differs from other countries. If you think that banning guns will prevent many deaths, I'm not sure. In December, a guy under drug effects ran over pedestrians in an Italian town with his car because he thought it was cool and he'd have become famous. These lunatics will find other ways to murder people if they won't have a gun. Banning guns in America would without a doubt prevent many deaths. The issue is, is having more freedom worth the risk that’ll come with it.
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Post by Zeb31 on Feb 16, 2018 17:50:33 GMT
I do think backwards-people are contributing to our society being in constant disconnect: the backward-ness vs forward-ness of our country is causing an inbalance. I couldn't agree more. It's not unpleasant, it's the simple truth. There's backward and forward-thinking people in all (or nearly all) identities and creeds, and that obviously includes Muslims. And that's exactly why I said she can fuck right off. What's behind her tweet isn't a legitimate concern for the grieving families, it's the wish to attack the people on the opposite side of the political spectrum for demanding a political change she disagrees with. It's massively hypocritical because the party she's aligned with and the news organization she works for show no such tact when there's a tragedy or a news story they can exploit and sensationalize to push their own causes - invariably with little to no concern about complexity and nuance. (Also, y'know. By complaining about the left politicizing this tragedy to push their agenda, she's... politicizing this tragedy and pushing her agenda. Just an anti-left, pro-gun one. That much is very very clear from the way she phrased her tweet. Hard to defend that.) Of course. I don't think that justifies taking all the focus away from guns, because an astounding number of deaths could be prevented by keeping those mentally unstable people from having such easy access to the weapons with which they'll be able to carry out their plans (which from my understanding is the crux of the whole gun control debate, not banning all guns altogether and taking them away from their owners), but we're in agreement that the conversation about mental health is a vital one to have as well.
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Post by Martin Stett on Feb 16, 2018 19:18:32 GMT
Not very portable, is it. Nor concealable. Not very, but still disproves the notion that only muskets were being fired off. The writers of the Constitution were fully aware of the existence of machine guns (AR-15 isn’t a machine gun though). The point is, you couldn't have walked into a school and killed tons of people with that thing. You'd have been tackled long before you could set it up. Whereas practically anyone can walk into any building in the United States and shoot half a dozen folks before anyone can so much as run.
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Post by moonman157 on Feb 16, 2018 19:55:42 GMT
Against. I'm not for doing nothing about it, but people comparing their gun-less countries to the U.S. sounds silly to me, it's like they think they can tell us how to create a more ideal society. Also... before the internet-sensitive attacks me... (or her rather), this is probably the only time I've ever agreed with Tomi Lahren: "@tomilahren Can the Left let the families grieve for even 24 hours before they push their anti-gun and anti-gunowner agenda? My goodness. This isn't about a gun it's about another lunatic" It has much less to do with guns than it has to do with certain luney people. I think people-regulating is one of the most underrated talking points in the media. The fact that it's never talked, yet guns always get the blame makes me wonder why people ignore the real source of the issue. It's been weird watching you devolve into more of an idiot with each passing month. I strongly advise that you stop visiting 4chan.
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Post by Ryan_MYeah on Feb 16, 2018 22:04:03 GMT
Also... before the internet-sensitive attacks me... (or her rather), this is probably the only time I've ever agreed with Tomi Lahren: "@tomilahren Can the Left let the families grieve for even 24 hours before they push their anti-gun and anti-gunowner agenda? My goodness. This isn't about a gun it's about another lunatic" I will make no attacks against you, because while I disagree with some of your points, I’m sure they come from a good place. As for Tomi, however, I’ll let this earlier post of mine do the talking.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2018 22:22:53 GMT
I completely agree. There seems to be this hypocrisy on both sides. People only don't want to politicize a tragedy when it would hurt their position.
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Post by PromNightCarrie on Feb 16, 2018 23:45:12 GMT
Against. I'm not for doing nothing about it, but people comparing their gun-less countries to the U.S. sounds silly to me, it's like they think they can tell us how to create a more ideal society. Also... before the internet-sensitive attacks me... (or her rather), this is probably the only time I've ever agreed with Tomi Lahren: "@tomilahren Can the Left let the families grieve for even 24 hours before they push their anti-gun and anti-gunowner agenda? My goodness. This isn't about a gun it's about another lunatic" Fuck Tomi Lahren. She never gives the family time to mourn without inserting her own political police-are-always-right agenda whenever an unarmed black man is shot.
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