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Post by quetee on Jan 11, 2018 0:20:05 GMT
The Polanski comment is pretty messed up but I don't really see what's wrong with what she said in the link in the OP. "being “touched up on the metro” should be a “non event”" is just an example of what most people see as wrong... can you even press charges for that? Someone did that to me and he just got cussed out.
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Post by Tommen_Saperstein on Jan 11, 2018 1:20:03 GMT
"being “touched up on the metro” should be a “non event”" is just an example of what most people see as wrong... can you even press charges for that? Someone did that to me and he just got cussed out. Sure you can, but cussing them out is a lot less hassle.
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cherry68
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Post by cherry68 on Jan 11, 2018 5:31:00 GMT
"being “touched up on the metro” should be a “non event”" is just an example of what most people see as wrong... That wasn't in the article in the OP You are right, it isn't in the first link I posted, but it's in the original letter signed by Deneuve and other French female artists. I heard about that in the news, even if the first article it wasn't clear. You can read it in the second link I posted some hours later. I couldn't find a link to the whole letter in English, sorry.
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avnermoriarti
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Post by avnermoriarti on Jan 11, 2018 6:06:09 GMT
That wasn't in the article in the OP You are right, it isn't in the first link I posted, but it's in the original letter signed by Deneuve and other French female artists. I heard about that in the news, even if the first article it wasn't clear. You can read it in the second link I posted some hours later. I couldn't find a link to the whole letter in English, sorry. This is exactly why quotations are not always reliable, you're right the letter says something along the lines "being “touched up on the metro” should be a “non event” but that's not everything in that paragraph. I'm also having trouble to find an english translation of the whole text but basically says this: Overall, we are concious that a human person is not monolithic: a woman can, on the same day, lead a professional team and enjoy being the sexual object of a man, without being a whore or a vile accomplice of the patriarchy. She can make sure that her salary be equal to the one of a man, but not feel traumatized for forever for being touched up on the metro, even if it's considered an offense. A woman can consider it as the expression of a large sexual misery or as if it had not happened.
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cherry68
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Post by cherry68 on Jan 11, 2018 7:30:50 GMT
This is exactly why quotations are not always reliable, you're right the letter says something along the lines "being “touched up on the metro” should be a “non event” but that's not everything in that paragraph. I'm also having trouble to find an english translation of the whole text but basically says this: Overall, we are concious that a human person is not monolithic: a woman can, on the same day, lead a professional team and enjoy being the sexual object of a man, without being a whore or a vile accomplice of the patriarchy. She can make sure that her salary be equal to the one of a man, but not feel traumatized for forever for being touched up on the metro, even if it's considered an offense. A woman can consider it as the expression of a large sexual misery or as if it had not happened. Well, I don't think she's entitled to decide if I have to feel traumatized or not when someone touches me in the subway. Especially when it happens almost daily. And this is not only a female issue, many of the recent scandals were about men being molested.
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Post by avnermoriarti on Jan 11, 2018 8:28:40 GMT
This is exactly why quotations are not always reliable, you're right the letter says something along the lines "being “touched up on the metro” should be a “non event” but that's not everything in that paragraph. I'm also having trouble to find an english translation of the whole text but basically says this: Overall, we are concious that a human person is not monolithic: a woman can, on the same day, lead a professional team and enjoy being the sexual object of a man, without being a whore or a vile accomplice of the patriarchy. She can make sure that her salary be equal to the one of a man, but not feel traumatized for forever for being touched up on the metro, even if it's considered an offense. A woman can consider it as the expression of a large sexual misery or as if it had not happened. Well, I don't think she's entitled to decide if I have to feel traumatized or not when someone touches me in the subway. Especially when it happens almost daily. And this is not only a female issue, many of the recent scandals were about men being molested. I think the finality of this statement is to question the #metoo movement and if you're identified with it.. great, but none of the women behind the letter are deciding for you how to feel after someone grabs your body on the subway, that's why says "a woman can..." and don't forget that right after that it says "A woman can consider it as the expression of a large sexual misery or as if it had not happened" Although I'd say this part could've been expanded a bit more because there are many more ways to take it but I think the idea is clear, there's more that just feel like a victim. I'm sure it happens on a daily basis, actually I've been there myself too, I've been touched by guys on the metro on more than one occasion but honestly I've never taken in such a harrowing way, I'm more on the other side and having different reactions, from forgetting about in a few minutes and don't let that to identify myself, to give a defiant look to the person but also it could be the total opposite; in another paragraph the letter talks about the act of flirtation, so what if that turns you up and something more pleasurable comes out of it ? And totally off topic but whatever, we're in a movie board, this is one of the reasons I hate Moonlight so much, because it's wearing this ideology from head to toe, at one point the main character, Chiron, 14 or 15 at the time, is on the beach at night with his best friend, who is the same age as him and to whom he's been attracted to since they were kids, well, this guy gives him a blow job and suddenly we are suppose to believe that that moment traumatized him and suppressed him sexually until he was in his late 20s and mets again with the same guy. Are you kidding me?!! lol, that would never happen to a gay guy, never. In between so many pain in the life of this kid it should've been a moment of liberation.
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cherry68
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Post by cherry68 on Jan 11, 2018 8:47:10 GMT
avnermoriartiDeneuve speaks about witch-hunting, but I guess the majority of women can discriminate between someone making an attempt and a molester. If a man I'm familiar with tries to touch my knee, I take his hand off and he doesn't insist, it's ok. But if this happens during an interview or with a random stranger on the bus, it's a different matter, especially if he reiterates the same behavior. And when I'm commuting, I don't want strangers touching my body. I personally reacted hitting them in the stomach with my elbow, but how could anyone think this is a normal approach to another person? How can Deneuve use that as an example of something that's not a big deal?
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Post by HELENA MARIA on Jan 11, 2018 9:18:53 GMT
countjohn While it's true that the METOO movement , as is true with almost every movement, can been taken too far in some instances, that doesn't make the movement itself incorrect or invalid. Pervasive sexual assault and sexual harassment, and the use of power and influence to threaten the careers and even the lives of women in order to get sexual favors is very real.
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Post by PromNightCarrie on Jan 11, 2018 9:23:58 GMT
You do have to take a nuanced view of this. There's a difference between casual flirting and abuse of power. There's a man hitting on a woman at a party who is his equal, and then there's your boss making sexual advances towards you in the workplace knowing a rejection could impact you professionally or just unwanted touching in general.
But my thing is, can anyone name me a high-profile man who has recently been brought down based on a casual flirtation? You would think from that letter that that is happening left and right. The only men who I can think of who have been brought down by #metoo recently were accused of much, much more than that.
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Post by Martin Stett on Jan 11, 2018 14:20:13 GMT
But my thing is, can anyone name me a high-profile man who has recently been brought down based on a casual flirtation? You would think from that letter that that is happening left and right. The only men who I can think of who have been brought down by #metoo recently were accused of much, much more than that. As I mentioned, Garrison Keillor and John Lasseter. Looking up Keillor, there is no info at all outside of what he has personally gone on the record to say. His accuser has not been named publicly. So we only have his word on what's happened, and the guy has been very vocal in his own defense, claiming that he was forced out without a warning and that all he ever did was one incident: “I put my hand on a woman’s bare back,” he wrote. “I meant to pat her back after she told me about her unhappiness and her shirt was open and my hand went up it about six inches. She recoiled. I apologized. I sent her an email of apology later and she replied that she had forgiven me and not to think about it. We were friends. We continued to be friendly right up until her lawyer called.” MPR told the Associated Press that the public radio organization had received “a formal complaint from an individual that includes multiple allegations related to Garrison’s behavior.” In a follow-up interview with the AP, Keillor clarified that he hasn’t seen the allegations MPR is investigating and that the story he shared publicly was the “only incident he could remember.” That's it. Whether or not he is guilty is completely impossible to determine or guess at, because his accuser won't come forward and we only have his word for it. And his word is that nothing happened. I don't know what MPR has on him, but if they can wipe his shows off of their network entirely, they need to have a clear reason why they believe this. As for John Lasseter, he has been accused repeatedly of things like uncomfortably long hugs, touching women's legs, etc. Again, we have his spin as well, a letter in which he announces his leave of absence from Pixar and Disney, claiming that all of his actions were "benign." His letter was a preemptive strike before one of the magazines or papers dropped an article. For the latter, what he did was nothing more than the flirting implied in the letter from Deneuve & co. For the former, we literally have only his word on what happened. Based on that evidence, it seems like a bit of a witchhunt involving any man that ever made any sort of sexual advance towards a woman.
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Post by anita on Jan 11, 2018 15:43:36 GMT
Deneuve and probably the other women who signed the Le Monde letter attacking the movement belong to a different generation, in which grotesque advances by men were viewed as something women had to endure in order to get along with men who, poor devils, are too awkward and childish to be believed. You must, therefore, have a LOT of patience and forgive them elegantly even if there are some excesses in the flirting, n'est-ce pas? But that's their old reality, it's passé, not ours, thank god. Also, as predictable as it is, accusing the MeToo movement of 'puritanism' is clearly a (not so subtle) manisfestation of a classic French anti-Americanism imo. Though I agree it might have been some little excesses here and there and opportunism is also a reality in the movement, saying that being touched in the subway is almost an non-issue makes me want to laugh hysterically. That's NOT defending sexual liberty whatsoever, as they are pathetically claiming. Deneuve probably never had to take the 'metro', non?
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Post by avnermoriarti on Jan 11, 2018 16:10:18 GMT
avnermoriarti Deneuve speaks about witch-hunting, but I guess the majority of women can discriminate between someone making an attempt and a molester. If a man I'm familiar with tries to touch my knee, I take his hand off and he doesn't insist, it's ok. But if this happens during an interview or with a random stranger on the bus, it's a different matter, especially if he reiterates the same behavior. And when I'm commuting, I don't want strangers touching my body. I personally reacted hitting them in the stomach with my elbow, but how could anyone think this is a normal approach to another person? How can Deneuve use that as an example of something that's not a big deal? We should stop writing just the name of Deneuve, because there are another 99 women behind the manifest and every word you're saying is basically what the whole text is saying, I don't know if you already read it entirely or not, but that's basically it. As Carrie said, we need a nuanced view of the behavior, is not black and white, is a matter of differentiate between all kinds of conducts, and if you take a quick look at twitter of people using #metoo it goes off the rails pretty quickly, and that's the problem. And there are certain agendas that I just can't say with a straight face are right, when the TIME magazine put those women on the cover of the person of the year one in particular caught my attention because in one of the propmotional clips she ( Selma Blair ) said something I though was extreme, she was talking that she is teaching his kid new "rules" and one of them is that he can't hug a person anymore unless the other ask for it, at such a young age you take that at face value, there's no way you can take everything than that implies, so to me that's a stretch. So if you hit a stranger that touches you there's nothing wrong with it, aggression is one of our basic instincts when it comes to protect ourselves, and again, the manifest at ay point says that's the normal, it never says that and also never says is not a big deal, is just there's different from someone with predatory behaviors. Finally I found a full translation of the text, here it is: link
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cherry68
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Post by cherry68 on Jan 11, 2018 17:09:21 GMT
avnermoriarti What those artists who signed that letter don't understand is that the #me too movement isn't simply inviting women to denounce molesters. It has been pretty clear that even males are victims sometimes, so there's not a sexist view describing women as weak. And touching a stranger on the subway IS a predatory behavior. I read that Deneuve & Co. wrote Well, I'm a mother of two boys. I teach my kids to respect the bodies and the dignity of the people they meet, males and females.
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Post by PromNightCarrie on Jan 11, 2018 17:47:15 GMT
But my thing is, can anyone name me a high-profile man who has recently been brought down based on a casual flirtation? You would think from that letter that that is happening left and right. The only men who I can think of who have been brought down by #metoo recently were accused of much, much more than that. As I mentioned, Garrison Keillor and John Lasseter. Looking up Keillor, there is no info at all outside of what he has personally gone on the record to say. His accuser has not been named publicly. So we only have his word on what's happened, and the guy has been very vocal in his own defense, claiming that he was forced out without a warning and that all he ever did was one incident: “I put my hand on a woman’s bare back,” he wrote. “I meant to pat her back after she told me about her unhappiness and her shirt was open and my hand went up it about six inches. She recoiled. I apologized. I sent her an email of apology later and she replied that she had forgiven me and not to think about it. We were friends. We continued to be friendly right up until her lawyer called.” MPR told the Associated Press that the public radio organization had received “a formal complaint from an individual that includes multiple allegations related to Garrison’s behavior.” In a follow-up interview with the AP, Keillor clarified that he hasn’t seen the allegations MPR is investigating and that the story he shared publicly was the “only incident he could remember.” That's it. Whether or not he is guilty is completely impossible to determine or guess at, because his accuser won't come forward and we only have his word for it. And his word is that nothing happened. I don't know what MPR has on him, but if they can wipe his shows off of their network entirely, they need to have a clear reason why they believe this. As for John Lasseter, he has been accused repeatedly of things like uncomfortably long hugs, touching women's legs, etc. Again, we have his spin as well, a letter in which he announces his leave of absence from Pixar and Disney, claiming that all of his actions were "benign." His letter was a preemptive strike before one of the magazines or papers dropped an article. For the latter, what he did was nothing more than the flirting implied in the letter from Deneuve & co. For the former, we literally have only his word on what happened. Based on that evidence, it seems like a bit of a witchhunt involving any man that ever made any sort of sexual advance towards a woman. Well, my definition of flirting doesn't match Deneuve and company. They seem to think it's okay to touch or force kisses on someone against their wishes. That goes beyond flirting. I think it's wrong, especially in a professional setting. Those two men seem to be accused of more than flirting and they were in a professional setting. The Garrison Keillor situation seems very vague though. We're not getting both sides, only his, so that doesn't really match what I was asking for.
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Post by avnermoriarti on Jan 11, 2018 18:04:30 GMT
cherry68What those artists who signed that letter don't understand is that the #me too movement isn't simply inviting women to denounce molesters. It has been pretty clear that even males are victims sometimes, so there's not a sexist view describing women as weak.And the letter is not saying that. Is pointing out what the movement has led to, is not about it's principles or what stands for from the very beginning but what has become instead, craving for a puritan, sanitized society, when now even give a look at someone can be seen as a crime and that to me makes look a person as weak because then we'll become like the character in Julianne Moore in Safe, vulnerabl to our our enviroment, and sorry but that's completely wrong, we are more than capable to stand for ourselves, and again, reminds me an early ( and what I think is an extreme ) reaction on social media, I remember Brie Larson twiteed denouncing the behavior of a security guy who asked her if he can invite her to dinner. There's no reason to feel offended by that, that's the kind of behavior the letter is questioning. Predatoty is what Weisntein did, when you know it's been done again and again and again, it's unconcibable to me consider it like that, it might be wrong but I wouldn't know if that person do it on a daily basis to describe it as a predator, again, what if s/he's insinuating that likes you and wants to have something with you, think about the subway scene in Shame, that's a normal reaction to it. And "for those of us who decided to have children, we think that...." is complemented by the next and final paragraph: "Incidents that can affect a woman’s body do not necessarily affect her dignity and must not, as difficult as they can be, necessarily make her a perpetual victim. Because we are not reducible to our bodies. Our inner freedom is inviolable. And this freedom that we cherish is not without risks and responsibilities. "
And if every person teaches that to their sons the same way you do it, then this whole issue wouldn't be so big.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2018 21:00:14 GMT
Rich, white old woman out of touch with the rest of society. Truly shocking.
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Post by Martin Stett on Jan 11, 2018 21:58:02 GMT
Well, my definition of flirting doesn't match Deneuve and company. They seem to think it's okay to touch or force kisses on someone against their wishes. That goes beyond flirting. I think it's wrong, especially in a professional setting. Those two men seem to be accused of more than flirting and they were in a professional setting. The Garrison Keillor situation seems very vague though. We're not getting both sides, only his, so that doesn't really match what I was asking for. I agree. I am, however, wary about the way that people like Keillor have been suspended based on unknown evidence. I'm not a flirt in any way and I would feel violated if the actions of Lasseter were directed at me, but I also feel that an atmosphere of suspicion is good for nobody, and that a simple rebuff should be all the action that is truly called for in that situation. If Lasseter were to continue, then other actions would be called for, but there's no evidence that anyone ever really stood up and asked him to stop. Instead, we're seeing people ousted from their jobs or being forced to take leaves because a "witch hunt" atmosphere has taken over. A culture in which it is assumed that men will not behave professionally, instead of the other way around.
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Post by Zeb31 on Jan 11, 2018 22:07:35 GMT
And totally off topic but whatever, we're in a movie board, this is one of the reasons I hate Moonlight so much, because it's wearing this ideology from head to toe, at one point the main character, Chiron, 14 or 15 at the time, is on the beach at night with his best friend, who is the same age as him and to whom he's been attracted to since they were kids, well, this guy gives him a blow job and suddenly we are suppose to believe that that moment traumatized him and suppressed him sexually until he was in his late 20s and mets again with the same guy. Are you kidding me?!! lol, that would never happen to a gay guy, never. In between so many pain in the life of this kid it should've been a moment of liberation. I'm not gonna go into detail re: the other things you've said in this thread other than just putting forth that I fundamentally disagree with a lot of it and that I think you're making light of things that absolutely should not be made light of even if they're not as egregious as what Weinstein and co. did, but this Moonlight bit caught my eye. I have no idea how you read this from the film, but it wasn't the episode on the beach that traumatized Chiron. Even as a young child we see him get antagonized and beat up by the other kids for not being masculine enough, and that continues well into his teenage years when he's still being picked on and regularly having his ass kicked. The one time he finally experiences his sexuality in a positive way, his best friend, who shared this one good moment with him, is coerced into taking part in the bullying and punching the shit out of him. After that, Chiron snaps on one of his bullies and gets sent away to juvie, where he has to find a way to keep himself alive. That's what causes him to repress himself and clam up against the rest of the world, not the handjob on the beach. That climactic (heh) moment with Kevin is the total opposite of what the #MeToo victims are standing up against, and that's exactly why meeting Kevin in the third act is such a cathartic moment for Chiron. I really don't see how any of that relates to the #MeToo movement, nor how you came to the conclusion that that's what Jenkins wished to communicate.
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Post by countjohn on Jan 11, 2018 23:28:26 GMT
countjohn While it's true that the METOO movement , as is true with almost every movement, can been taken too far in some instances, that doesn't make the movement itself incorrect or invalid. Pervasive sexual assault and sexual harassment, and the use of power and influence to threaten the careers and even the lives of women in order to get sexual favors is very real. I just skimmed the article in the OP yesterday and quickly posted a response. In a vacuum I didn't have a problem with any of the comments individually, I wasn't viewing it as a rebuttal to the metoo stuff, although apparently that was the intent of the whole letter. I don't agree with her comment about the metro which wasn't in the first article.
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Post by HELENA MARIA on Jan 11, 2018 23:36:44 GMT
countjohn While it's true that the METOO movement , as is true with almost every movement, can been taken too far in some instances, that doesn't make the movement itself incorrect or invalid. Pervasive sexual assault and sexual harassment, and the use of power and influence to threaten the careers and even the lives of women in order to get sexual favors is very real. I just skimmed the article in the OP yesterday and quickly posted a response. In a vacuum I didn't have a problem with any of the comments individually, I wasn't viewing it as a rebuttal to the metoo stuff, although apparently that was the intent of the whole letter. I don't agree with her comment about the metro which wasn't in the first article. ok
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Post by PromNightCarrie on Jan 12, 2018 1:35:05 GMT
countjohn While it's true that the METOO movement , as is true with almost every movement, can been taken too far in some instances, that doesn't make the movement itself incorrect or invalid. Pervasive sexual assault and sexual harassment, and the use of power and influence to threaten the careers and even the lives of women in order to get sexual favors is very real. I just skimmed the article in the OP yesterday and quickly posted a response. In a vacuum I didn't have a problem with any of the comments individually, I wasn't viewing it as a rebuttal to the metoo stuff, although apparently that was the intent of the whole letter. I don't agree with her comment about the metro which wasn't in the first article. Yeah, the metro comment is the strangest part of it all.
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avnermoriarti
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Post by avnermoriarti on Jan 12, 2018 7:16:17 GMT
Zeb31 No one is making light of things that shouldn't be, of course there's empathy, no one in their right mind would be againts of the people who has gone through one of those situations, is about discussing the attitudes, what I found worthy about the manifiesto is questioning what the groupthinking and its ideology has become. Back to Moonlight, is not just that scene that I linked to the #metoo movement but the whole movie, the driving force behind it is victimization, without it, the movie wouldn't have a reason to exist. The whole time we're force to feel for a guy who on top of everything has no individuality, if he were a strong, cheerful, violent or flawed then I would have something to care for, but instead the whole time he's bullied, sad and a gay martyr, it's all shame, there's nothing questioning his own person, I remember the movie I immediately thought about while watching Moonlight was Vagabond, and both characters are equally alone and marginalized in this world, but the character in Vagabond at any moment begs you to like her, she's unlikable and rejects help, with Chrion... there's nothing difficult about him. The scene that you mention of Kevin beating Chiron has no sense at all and no reason to exist within the movie, there's not enough background to understand why Kevin would do that to him or why would he be influenced by other guy to do it and betray a childhood friend, I can see that it can be overlook because the next thing we saw is Chiron's face bloody, in the school's office and the professor ( or the principal) don't offering any kind of help. And I wish there was something climitic about the scene at the beach but like the rest of the movie, it doesn't have sexual heat at all, there's no skin, no tongue, nothing, is very evasive, even when her mother calls him fag_ot when don't even hear it, at the end when Chiron and Kevin are in the apartment they just hug, and the only reason I can think for all of this to be the way it is is to be liked by the "everyone is a victim" movement.
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Post by RiverleavesElmius on Jan 12, 2018 18:56:55 GMT
I LOVE Catherine Deneuve & while I don't agree with her flawed wording here, her overall message is definitely on point.
I respect her more than the French bitch on these boards! 😈
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Post by HELENA MARIA on Jan 15, 2018 8:43:19 GMT
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Post by hugobolso1 on Jan 15, 2018 12:42:20 GMT
I understand her point of view, many men and women uses sex 4 social or laboral climb. They defend that as part of sex freedom. They are against rape of course.
In fact more than a half of Academy Award Winners were related to a powerful mogul. Most were wives, daughters, girlfriends or lovers at the time of a powerful that could be a director, a producer or an important actor.
Also a few men also won thanks to the help of a powerful wife like Frank Sinatra. But in France I guess is more common. So yep I guess Deneuve used sex in advance of her career, and probably also help men in their career too.
So be careful because the Coens could be the Me too new victim.-
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