CookiesNCream
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So what else is new?
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Post by CookiesNCream on Oct 28, 2017 2:00:27 GMT
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Post by Joaquim on Oct 28, 2017 2:46:04 GMT
Go ahead and let them secede.
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cherry68
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Post by cherry68 on Oct 28, 2017 5:32:11 GMT
Go ahead and let them secede. The recent independence referendum (even if Spanish police tried to prevent people from voting) has only 40% of catalan population asking for independence. I wouldn't force independence on the whole of them.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2017 13:17:04 GMT
I'm not sure which 'side' to take on this matter yet. Yeah pretty much this.
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CookiesNCream
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So what else is new?
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Post by CookiesNCream on Oct 28, 2017 23:30:09 GMT
Even the way the referendum went down is controversial. Not a lot of Catalans voted, how the majority didn’t make up for the support of independence, Spanish police hostility and suppression of votes, how the decision is considered unconstitutional, and then all the complications of earning sovereign recognition and status.
Maybe the Catalans will eventually succeed on this one or maybe they won’t. It’s hard to say.
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cherry68
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Post by cherry68 on Oct 29, 2017 6:39:59 GMT
For those saying "only 40% voted," have you been to Catalonia? I lived with a Catalan family two summers ago, never met a single person who wasn't pro independence. Every city in Catalonia was decked out with the independence flag. I don't think whether or not this is something Catalans want is really in question. As for whether or not they should have the right to secede, I'm a very very tentative no. This isn't the American revolution with a couple centuries of political philosophy behind it. Their case is almost exclusively an economic one. My heart says they should be independent but my head disagrees, for now. I could be swayed quite easily though. I was in Barcelona, even if only for one week,and I have a friend from Barcelona who lives in Lugano . I saw that city as a cosmopolitan one, with many foreigners living there, and even if they don't call themselves fully Spanish, that doesn't mean the majority wants secession. There was a survey few months ago where 59% was against it for instance.
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cherry68
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Post by cherry68 on Oct 29, 2017 7:21:37 GMT
I don't doubt for a second that a VERY strong majority support this. Still, they didn't even vote.
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atn
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Post by atn on Oct 29, 2017 7:24:21 GMT
I don't doubt for a second that a VERY strong majority support this. Still, they didn't even vote. And I don't support their right to secede. I just think the argument of whether or not they would still vote for independence if a proper vote was held is settled.
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cherry68
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Post by cherry68 on Oct 29, 2017 7:30:56 GMT
Still, they didn't even vote. And I don't support their right to secede. I just think the argument of whether or not they would still vote for independence if a proper vote was held is settled. I just think they'd have been more successful if they proposed a confederation of states similar to Swiss model (I'm not naming the US because I find more similarities with a country with 4 official languages), with Basque region being another state for instance. It'd be more acceptable for all the people involved.
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atn
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Post by atn on Oct 29, 2017 7:58:02 GMT
And I don't support their right to secede. I just think the argument of whether or not they would still vote for independence if a proper vote was held is settled. I just think they'd have been more successful if they proposed a confederation of states similar to Swiss model (I'm not naming the US because I find more similarities with a country with 4 official languages), with Basque region being another state for instance. It'd be more acceptable for all the people involved. i could get behind that. federalism does tend to be one of the better isms out there.
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tobias
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Post by tobias on Oct 29, 2017 10:21:40 GMT
For those saying "only 40% voted," have you been to Catalonia? I lived with a Catalan family two summers ago, never met a single person who wasn't pro independence. Every city in Catalonia was decked out with the independence flag. I don't think whether or not this is something Catalans want is really in question. I think that's dubious. In the past polls have swung both ways and the reason the referendum got so much approval seemed to be that a) people felt part of a huge movement and b) they voted because of the dickish behavior of the central government which put them over the edge on the matter. I think the anti-indepence people are merely more silent about it. I have not seen an actual pro-independence argument that convinces me. The most spoken language is spanish, not catalan, only 50 % can even write catalan. They have autonomy already, they have their own TV stations, they are (aside from recent events) not marginalised or surpressed, they merely pay more than they would want to and they're still the most prosperous region (which would be comparable to Baden-Würtemberg in Germany, they also always paid more than they received in Germany, they are the only region to do so here btw and they're bigger than Catalonia but they don't seek indepence) and actually Madrid (and also one other region I believe) gets screwed harder by the distribution. I mean they have been part of Spain for like 500 years, The region I live in has been part of Germany for 150 years, we do not have our own TV stations (we share one with 4 other states) and an independence movement is virtually non-existent (though we do have the European Centre for Minority Issues which is situated here because the situation here is a positive example, I'm also part of a minority myself). I'd much rather we have a Europe of Regions. You cut down the national government to cultural institutions and then give regional governments aswell as the EU government more powers (a little more like the US - or Switzerland - in structure but still overall very different and without your stupid first past the post system). This would solve such problems, unite Europe and still alow for regional specific stuff. It's also a lot more honest to European history at large than national states which are a construct of the 19th century.
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atn
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Post by atn on Oct 30, 2017 4:00:19 GMT
For those saying "only 40% voted," have you been to Catalonia? I lived with a Catalan family two summers ago, never met a single person who wasn't pro independence. Every city in Catalonia was decked out with the independence flag. I don't think whether or not this is something Catalans want is really in question. I have not seen an actual pro-independence argument that convinces me. The most spoken language is spanish, not catalan, only 50 % can even write catalan. They have autonomy already, they have their own TV stations, they are (aside from recent events) not marginalised or surpressed, they merely pay more than they would want to and they're still the most prosperous region (which would be comparable to Baden-Würtemberg in Germany, they also always paid more than they received in Germany, they are the only region to do so here btw and they're bigger than Catalonia but they don't seek indepence) and actually Madrid (and also one other region I believe) gets screwed harder by the distribution. I mean they have been part of Spain for like 500 years, The region I live in has been part of Germany for 150 years, we do not have our own TV stations (we share one with 4 other states) and an independence movement is virtually non-existent (though we do have the European Centre for Minority Issues which is situated here because the situation here is a positive example, I'm also part of a minority myself). I already said I don't support independence lol
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avnermoriarti
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Post by avnermoriarti on Oct 30, 2017 6:40:31 GMT
The tension in Cataluña... I just can't imagine but one thing I'm sure, many countries, especially mine should take note, acknowledge our lack of balls and actually do something, there's been countless speeches, statements and many words, tweets and so on but no action, at least we can take what's happening as an example and not be a passive society.
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tobias
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Post by tobias on Oct 30, 2017 11:57:38 GMT
I have not seen an actual pro-independence argument that convinces me. The most spoken language is spanish, not catalan, only 50 % can even write catalan. They have autonomy already, they have their own TV stations, they are (aside from recent events) not marginalised or surpressed, they merely pay more than they would want to and they're still the most prosperous region (which would be comparable to Baden-Würtemberg in Germany, they also always paid more than they received in Germany, they are the only region to do so here btw and they're bigger than Catalonia but they don't seek indepence) and actually Madrid (and also one other region I believe) gets screwed harder by the distribution. I mean they have been part of Spain for like 500 years, The region I live in has been part of Germany for 150 years, we do not have our own TV stations (we share one with 4 other states) and an independence movement is virtually non-existent (though we do have the European Centre for Minority Issues which is situated here because the situation here is a positive example, I'm also part of a minority myself). I already said I don't support independence lol Yeah, I've read that. This wasn't directed at you but an observation of the situation. If they had good arguments the movement would have more support was what I was trying to imply. I'm doubting how far genuine, considerate support for this really goes as most of what I've seen seems more sensationalist than anything.
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CookiesNCream
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So what else is new?
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Post by CookiesNCream on Oct 31, 2017 0:22:41 GMT
The tension in Cataluña... I just can't imagine but one thing I'm sure, many countries, especially mine should take note, acknowledge our lack of balls and actually do something, there's been countless speeches, statements and many words, tweets and so on but no action, at least we can take what's happening as an example and not be a passive society. Well, I hope that everything could work out for the best there.
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Post by IceTruckDexter on Nov 4, 2017 0:26:58 GMT
For those saying "only 40% voted," have you been to Catalonia? I lived with a Catalan family two summers ago, never met a single person who wasn't pro independence. Every city in Catalonia was decked out with the independence flag. I don't think whether or not this is something Catalans want is really in question. As for whether or not they should have the right to secede, I'm a very very tentative no. This isn't the American revolution with a couple centuries of political philosophy behind it. Their case is almost exclusively an economic one. My heart says they should be independent but my head disagrees, for now. I could be swayed quite easily though. I was just there myself a couple of months ago and I can tell you not everyone wanted independence. Also everyone forgets that this election wasn't sanctioned.
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Post by IceTruckDexter on Nov 4, 2017 0:30:30 GMT
I'd much rather we have a Europe of Regions. You cut down the national government to cultural institutions and then give regional governments aswell as the EU government more powers You lost me a giving the EU more power.
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