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Post by JangoB on Apr 20, 2024 13:51:25 GMT
Definitely plays like a logical continuation (progression?) of the folklore/evermore/Midnights "era," but since it's exactly the one I'm familiar with and very appreciative of, I thoroughly dug this. Saw some complaints that the album feels like one huge song and that it's all vibes and no hits... and that's exactly what I like about it. To be fair, Swift is preaching to the choir here with so many of the songs once again being co-written and co-produced by Aaron Dessner, but I'm a fan of the Antonoff stuff too. Not a bad song in the bunch. I'm also seeing discussions about the album not being all that much lyrics-wise (too immature, too verbose) but I don't really listen to music through that prism, tbh. With English not being my first language, I cling to the overall, shall we say, spirit of the song when I turn it on, not to specific lines and stuff. And when I did pay more attention to them on this album, I didn't find anything particularly wrong. I saw some complaints about the lyrics not living up to the standards of someone like Bob Dylan and, like... were they supposed to? Was the album announced as some second coming of writerly Jesus or something? I don't get it. Again, I think the lyrics are perfectly fine. Certainly better than anything I could come up with She's very talented. And I chuckled at the mild naughtiness of it too. F-bombs! A diss track! Scandalous
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Post by pacinoyes on Apr 20, 2024 14:11:22 GMT
Definitely plays like a logical continuation (progression?) of the folklore/evermore/Midnights "era," but since it's exactly the one I'm familiar with and very appreciative of, I thoroughly dug this. Saw some complaints that the album feels like one huge song and that it's all vibes and no hits... and that's exactly what I like about it. To be fair, Swift is preaching to the choir here with so many of the songs once again being co-written and co-produced by Aaron Dessner, but I'm a fan of the Antonoff stuff too. Not a bad song in the bunch. I'm also seeing discussions about the album not being all that much lyrics-wise (too immature, too verbose) * One of the most dishonest things about this Twitter-verse Hellscape in which we live - is this idea that ALL reactions must be positive and that as the audience we "must" (so to speak) coalesce around a agreed upon narrative.........this is, of course, a bullshit lie..........you see it on MAR daily where people will post long ass word salad Twtter / X posts to make it appear that the most mundane works of Art are somehow "raved" etc........... * This album I'm quite sure will be quite beloved by her fans who will return to it constantly, ravenously actually - treasure it, and find the criticism you mentioned above ^ more as being reflective of a flawed critical perspective than the work of Art itself - the Lindsay Zoladz review is a very bad take and will be referenced as such for a long time I reckon.........some of the criticism actually reminds me of Oppenheimer - where people criticised the film for not showing the victims ...........but eventually the film "answered" that attack............ This particular album is getting precisely the types of reviews - both good and bad - that it needs to justify it's eventual stature..........I think its eventual stature will be kind of staggering tbh.........and I don't say shit like that a lot and I'm not even saying I feel exactly that way about it.......it is beyond that.......it is truly a magnum opus..........
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Post by JangoB on Apr 20, 2024 14:49:52 GMT
Definitely plays like a logical continuation (progression?) of the folklore/evermore/Midnights "era," but since it's exactly the one I'm familiar with and very appreciative of, I thoroughly dug this. Saw some complaints that the album feels like one huge song and that it's all vibes and no hits... and that's exactly what I like about it. To be fair, Swift is preaching to the choir here with so many of the songs once again being co-written and co-produced by Aaron Dessner, but I'm a fan of the Antonoff stuff too. Not a bad song in the bunch. I'm also seeing discussions about the album not being all that much lyrics-wise (too immature, too verbose) * One of the most dishonest things about this Twitter-verse Hellscape in which we live - is this idea that ALL reactions must be positive and that as the audience we "must" (so to speak) coalesce around a agreed upon narrative.........this is, of course, a bullshit lie..........you see it on MAR daily where people will post long ass word salad Twtter / X posts to make it appear that the most mundane works of Art are somehow "raved" etc........... * This album I'm quite sure will be quite beloved by her fans who will return to it constantly, ravenously actually - treasure it, and find the criticism you mentioned above ^ more as being reflective of a flawed critical perspective than the work of Art itself - the Lindsay Zoladz review is a very bad take and will be referenced as such for a long time I reckon.........some of the criticism actually reminds me of Oppenheimer - where people criticised the film for not showing the victims ...........but eventually the film "answered" that attack............ This particular album is getting precisely the types of reviews - both good and bad - that it needs to justify it's eventual stature..........I think its eventual stature will be kind of staggering tbh.........and I don't say shit like that a lot and I'm not even saying I feel exactly that way about it.......it is beyond that.......it is truly a magnum opus.......... Do you think some of those criticisms are a direct response to that idea you refer to in your first paragraph about people being conditioned to like something? Not that a critic or a listener isn't allowed to dislike something on its own merits, of course. I mean, I get the remarks about the album feeling very similar to the last few ones but I feel it's a culmination of them so I don't mind that at all. Plus I just love that sound they've got. And the notion that she needs an editor or that it's all too overstuffed... I dunno, I kinda love it when an artist has so many ideas that they're just pouring out of them. You feel the passion and the candor of it.
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Post by pacinoyes on Apr 20, 2024 15:22:11 GMT
* One of the most dishonest things about this Twitter-verse Hellscape in which we live - is this idea that ALL reactions must be positive and that as the audience we "must" (so to speak) coalesce around a agreed upon narrative.........this is, of course, a bullshit lie..........you see it on MAR daily where people will post long ass word salad Twtter / X posts to make it appear that the most mundane works of Art are somehow "raved" etc........... * This album I'm quite sure will be quite beloved by her fans who will return to it constantly, ravenously actually - treasure it, and find the criticism you mentioned above ^ more as being reflective of a flawed critical perspective than the work of Art itself - the Lindsay Zoladz review is a very bad take and will be referenced as such for a long time I reckon.........some of the criticism actually reminds me of Oppenheimer - where people criticised the film for not showing the victims ...........but eventually the film "answered" that attack............ This particular album is getting precisely the types of reviews - both good and bad - that it needs to justify it's eventual stature..........I think its eventual stature will be kind of staggering tbh.........and I don't say shit like that a lot and I'm not even saying I feel exactly that way about it.......it is beyond that.......it is truly a magnum opus.......... Do you think some of those criticisms are a direct response to that idea you refer to in your first paragraph about people being conditioned to like something? Not that a critic or a listener isn't allowed to dislike something on its own merits, of course. I mean, I get the remarks about the album feeling very similar to the last few ones but I feel it's a culmination of them so I don't mind that at all. Plus I just love that sound they've got. And the notion that she needs an editor or that it's all too overstuffed... I dunno, I kinda love it when an artist has so many ideas that they're just pouring out of them. You feel the passion and the candor of it. Yes, I think so ^ - I would say the albums that this winks to - in some ways is a mix between Blood on The Tracks & Blonde on Blonde - I may have just killed ibbi tbh - NOT in its artistic achievement but in its creative intent.......this is a genuinely poetic album........whether its good or bad poetry isn't the point imo as much as it conveys - like Joni Mitchell and Dylan - poetry itself..........you could have said Dylan was repeating himself at first in 1966, writing too many wordy, long songs - and too many songs period - on BoB - that he was defensive af on Blood on Tracks .......that the now famous BoB "trick" of talking about or referencing Pop Culture or immediate history (the song that sounds like The Beatles Norwegian Wood, the song referencing Jackie Kennedy's hat, etc) is often replicated by Swift here (Kardashian, Charlie Puth, Dylan Thomas, Patti Smith).........the "sound" is a great point about this record Jango - and the sound on BoB is crucial too ( "thin wild mercury" Dylan famously called it) It is very rare that you get a record with this type of focus in its conception - that can (and will) reach a mass audience......many of the bad reviews of this record make the mistake of trying to "play the role of a typical Taylor Swift listener"..........the album itself is not doing that at all ......... it's like with film criticism - review the movie your watching, not the one you wish was made........like I said somewhere in this thread - you could teach a course in unravelling this record...........who of her peers could have made this? Who could have conceived its creation to begin with? There's a huge value just in that .........
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dazed
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Post by dazed on Apr 20, 2024 17:10:00 GMT
i have no words for that 1830 racism lyric ðŸ˜
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Post by countjohn on Apr 20, 2024 19:33:19 GMT
Even Pac's a Swiftie now........
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Post by Joaquim on Apr 20, 2024 22:12:40 GMT
I’m sorry but Taylor Swift is the final boss of basic bitches. She is THE basic bitch
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Post by countjohn on Apr 21, 2024 2:44:45 GMT
I’m sorry but Taylor Swift is the final boss of basic bitches. She is THE basic bitch I already said she was the Olive Garden of music which I think sums it up.
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Post by pacinoyes on Apr 21, 2024 7:41:52 GMT
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Barbie
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Post by Barbie on Apr 22, 2024 0:38:26 GMT
I’m sorry but Taylor Swift is the final boss of basic bitches. She is THE basic bitch There's no such thing as "basic bitch". This is like that time in 2014 when people were hating on women for the crime of using that dog filter on Snapchat or liking Michael Kors watches
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Barbie
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Post by Barbie on Apr 22, 2024 0:55:28 GMT
I'm still processing the album, but I find it very depressing. This is an actually dark album unlike people who said back in 2017 reputation was dark bc the color palette was black lol
One thing about her that I've always respected before I became a fan is how vulnerable and sincere she continues to be. Yes she's very controlled about her image but she is so candid in her lyrics. I think it would be entirely understandable for a superstar at her level to pull back especially after some of her own braindead parasocial fans tried to RUIN her reputation last spring. She knows how people will go through every lyric with a microscope yet she still chose to be unflattering, "problematic", messy, and raw. She knows people are going to interpret everything in bad faith, but she chooses to still wear her heart on her sleeve. I will always respect people who will put themselves out there like that because our society hates sincerity and real human emotions so much despite everyone craving human connection in our increasingly alienated world I feel bad for her. The Fortnight music video was sad . The psych ward imagery indicates she really went through a dark time. I thought her dating Matty Healy last year (and so soon after a breakup) was her version of a mental breakdown. I felt the same way when she did that PR stunt with Tom Hiddleston. I think people don't see it that way because she didn't go on a drug fueled bender and smash a car window like Britney, but it's clear Taylor had some sort of a breakdown. That she did all this while going a massive tour is a testament to her strength Back to her parasocial fans, I LOVE that she called them vipers in empath's clothing and sanctimonious LMAO. Some of her fans really wrote an insane whiny open letter last spring telling her to break up with Matty Healy. Some of the more extreme ones said they wanted to purposely damage her life so she can be put in a conservatorship like Britney
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Barbie
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Post by Barbie on Apr 22, 2024 0:58:15 GMT
* This album I'm quite sure will be quite beloved by her fans who will return to it constantly, ravenously actually - treasure it Yes I've seen longtime fans say this. They said this album is for her fans, not for the general public
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Barbie
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Post by Barbie on Apr 22, 2024 1:05:33 GMT
i have no words for that 1830 racism lyric 😠Admittedly that lyric really makes me cringe . I wish she didn't even mention racism. It just sounds like the kind of thing people do on Twitter where they preempt criticism to avoid being cancelled or piled on. It's defensive and people will pounce on that
Anyone coming in good faith will understand the game she was talking about though. My friend and I went to the museum and looked at artifacts from ancient Greece and Rome. We were like "I'm nostalgic for a time I didn't even live through. I'd love to live during that time". It's already a given that when I said that, I of course would like to live during that time without slavery and subjugation of women and other minorities
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Archie
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Post by Archie on Apr 23, 2024 4:42:43 GMT
This is unlistenable garbage. Sorry.
We truly are at a low point in humanity if this is considered good songwriting.
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Post by Archie on Apr 23, 2024 4:43:47 GMT
Even Pac's a Swiftie now........ Extremely depressing. "The White Album of Pop Broken Hearted Love Songs" just fucking kill me already
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Post by pacinoyes on Apr 23, 2024 5:23:48 GMT
Even Pac's a Swiftie now........ Extremely depressing. "The White Album of Pop Broken Hearted Love Songs" just fucking kill me already * Well you gotta remember I think The Beatles started to decline on The White Album Arch - I've compared the Swift album to the White album, Blonde on Blonde, Blood on the Tracks, Joni Mitchell (there's more too, Tori Amos for another) and called it a "magnum opus" which can be good or bad......... but I didn't say it was as good as any of those records / artists....... just that conceptually that was her intent .............although Clara Bow is a great, great song ftw ......... * Btw - I'm having quite a strange 2024 so far - 4 months in ain't I? - So far I have admired & liked (not loved!) the Taylor Swift record, even more surprsingly the Vampire Weekend record (wtf) and i also suddenly now enjoy women's basketball very much apparently..........
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Post by countjohn on Apr 23, 2024 22:11:14 GMT
Even Pac's a Swiftie now........ Extremely depressing. "The White Album of Pop Broken Hearted Love Songs" just fucking kill me already I usually just ignore pop music but the insistence her stans have in comparing her to The Beatles and whoever else makes me hold her to that standard. if you want to compare her to The Beatles, fine, I'll compare her to The Beatles. Even the worst, most indulgent tracks on the White Album are still more interesting than anything Taylor is doing nowadays. At least Revolution 9 and Piggies have an actual point of view (sonically in the case of the former and socially in the case of the latter) and give some insight into the personalities of their songwriters. She's making some of the most vanilla wallpaper music I've ever heard. The elevator in the office building where I work plays light pop music and new era Taylor stuff plays all the time. It's the perfect place to listen to her, elevator music for a new generation. Extremely depressing. "The White Album of Pop Broken Hearted Love Songs" just fucking kill me already * Well you gotta remember I think The Beatles started to decline on The White Album Arch - I've compared the Swift album to the White album, Blonde on Blonde, Blood on the Tracks, Joni Mitchell (there's more too, Tori Amos for another) and called it a "magnum opus" which can be good or bad......... but I didn't say it was as good as any of those records / artists....... just that conceptually that was her intent .............although Clara Bow is a great, great song ftw ......... As a cohesive unit, sure, but Lennon was at his absolute peak at a songwriter and although McCartney and Harrison were going in separate directions (McCartney starting to decline and starting to sound a little like Wings for the first time, Harrison improving and coming into his own) they both did some of the best work of their career on that album (Helter Skelter, While My Guitar Gently Weeps, Blackbird, Back in the USSR, plus Hey Jude was recorded in those sessions as well). The comparison between Taylor and studio era Beatles is just a non-starter to me. They were just so much more musically adventurous by many orders of magnitude. More like Wings era McCartney when he was making boring soft rock made to be played as background music on low volume.
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Post by Joaquim on Apr 23, 2024 22:40:51 GMT
This is unlistenable garbage. Sorry. We truly are at a low point in humanity if this is considered good songwriting.
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Post by pacinoyes on Apr 23, 2024 22:43:52 GMT
* Well you gotta remember I think The Beatles started to decline on The White Album Arch - I've compared the Swift album to the White album, Blonde on Blonde, Blood on the Tracks, Joni Mitchell (there's more too, Tori Amos for another) and called it a "magnum opus" which can be good or bad......... but I didn't say it was as good as any of those records / artists....... just that conceptually that was her intent .............although Clara Bow is a great, great song ftw ......... As a cohesive unit, sure, but Lennon was at his absolute peak at a songwriter and although McCartney and Harrison were going in separate directions (McCartney starting to decline and starting to sound a little like Wings for the first time, Harrison improving and coming into his own) they both did some of the best work of their career on that album * My problems with The White Album are that you can clearly argue it - or I can - as not among the top 2 of its year - but I could do that for all of the previous 4 years (64-67)........now part of that is their peers got better..........part of that is not being in the top 2 is a ridiculously high standard .........and part of that is that Paul McCartney's homage songs - or parody songs - irk me a great deal.........a GREAT deal * I'll say it again about the Tayllor Swift album .........there has not been a major Pop icon unleash this kind of record in a loooooooooooong time much less that makes people separate themselves from their wallets for it ..........there is something to a record that tosses off a line that says quite sadly - (iirc) "Once I fix me, he's gonna miss me." ........and still have people saying she's not expressing anything .... :...I may doubt some of these songs quality - but I don't doubt her sincerity or the purposeful intent behind it.......
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Post by countjohn on Apr 23, 2024 23:06:10 GMT
This is unlistenable garbage. Sorry. We truly are at a low point in humanity if this is considered good songwriting. Taylor seems to want any man she sleeps with to be forced to marry her in the morning so she won't be a "cardigan on the floor" or a red scarf or whatever so this checks out.
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Post by countjohn on Apr 23, 2024 23:25:52 GMT
As a cohesive unit, sure, but Lennon was at his absolute peak at a songwriter and although McCartney and Harrison were going in separate directions (McCartney starting to decline and starting to sound a little like Wings for the first time, Harrison improving and coming into his own) they both did some of the best work of their career on that album * My problems with The White Album are that you can clearly argue it - or I can - as not among the top 2 of its year - but I could do that for all of the previous 4 years (64-67)........now part of that is their peers got better..........part of that is not being in the top 2 is a ridiculously high standard .........and part of that is that Paul McCartney's homage songs - or parody songs - irk me a great deal.........a GREAT deal * I'll say it again about the Tayllor Swift album .........there has not been a major Pop icon unleash this kind of record in a loooooooooooong time much less that makes people separate themselves from their wallets for it ..........there is something to a record that tosses off a line that says quite sadly - (iirc) "Once I fix me, he's gonna miss me." ........and still have people saying she's not expressing anything .... :...I may doubt some of these songs quality - but I don't doubt her sincerity or the purposeful intent behind it....... I'd say Revolver and White Album are the best albums of their years, I'd put plenty of people ahead of them in 65 (Dylan, Kinks, Beach Boys, Who, Stones as a singles band, plus Coltrane, Davis, Albert Ayler, and Sun Ra if we're including jazz) and Pepper gets lower on my 67 list the more things I listen to. That said, this isn't sports where we still list Babe Ruth as one of the best baseball players of all time because he was the best of his own time against pitchers who couldn't even throw 80 MPH. Even if Pepper is only like the 5th or 6th best album of 67 it's still dramatically better than anything being released now and in the 21st century generally outside of maybe a couple Radiohead or Sigur Ros albums. I'm not going to compare you to your peers in art, I'm just going to look at if it's good or not. I don't doubt that Taylor's album is better than most of the other sludge being released in pop right now. And I do have more respect for her because she's writing her own songs with what appears to be minimal assistance from outside songwriters as opposed to when someone has 8 songwriters on every song. But I'm more impressed by someone being fifth best in the late 60's (or the late 70's, or the 90's) than being the best now. I just don't think that's a particularly interesting thing to express, "Once I fix me, he's gonna miss me" is the ethos of without exaggeration thousands of breakup songs. And it's the same thing she's been singing about for the better part of a decade now. Maybe she just hasn't progressed as a person as some have suggested or she could just be manufacturing these songs because it's what her audience wants. That said, my issue isn't so much the lyrics, I do like plenty of things where I don't care about the lyrics. The music itself just has no character to me. I've said it all already, "wallpaper music", "elevator music for a new generation", "Olive Garden of music". It's just colorless soft rock and it wouldn't be getting all the attention and raves if someone else did it.
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Post by pacinoyes on Apr 23, 2024 23:56:16 GMT
* My problems with The White Album are that you can clearly argue it - or I can - as not among the top 2 of its year - but I could do that for all of the previous 4 years (64-67)........now part of that is their peers got better..........part of that is not being in the top 2 is a ridiculously high standard .........and part of that is that Paul McCartney's homage songs - or parody songs - irk me a great deal.........a GREAT deal * I'll say it again about the Tayllor Swift album .........there has not been a major Pop icon unleash this kind of record in a loooooooooooong time much less that makes people separate themselves from their wallets for it ..........there is something to a record that tosses off a line that says quite sadly - (iirc) "Once I fix me, he's gonna miss me." ........and still have people saying she's not expressing anything .... :...I may doubt some of these songs quality - but I don't doubt her sincerity or the purposeful intent behind it....... I'd say Revolver and White Album are the best albums of their years I just don't think that's a particularly interesting thing to express, "Once I fix me, he's gonna miss me" is the ethos of without exaggeration thousands of breakup songs. And it's the same thing she's been singing about for the better part of a decade now. * I would rank The Beatles a bit differently myself - The White Album is more like Abbey Road to me........some filler, but some of the best music ever made.......I think they lose to Dylan in 65 / 66, The Stones - among others - in 68 / 69 .......but the great albums are coming so fast and furious in 68 / 69 anyway ............actually I could make a case for Pepper as only 3rd best in '67 behind The Who Sell Out and (especially) the Velvets but it is so creative and imaginative I probably rank it as 1 or 2 at least 33% of the time anyway * I'll say that for me it's quite an interesting thing to express in HOW she expresses it - both tossed off and far more overtly poetic (too much) than the last few years...............Pop stars rarely show the level of self aware weakness she shows here imo: We just talked about Beyonce's cover of Jolene NOT expressng weakness - in a cover of a song ABOUT weakness.........but it will be interesting to see how the record plays out over time.......I'm sure people are still pouring over this clusterfuck of songs and trying to sort it all out........I mean something is weird when I'm writing more about the album than the Taylor stans on MAR......... somebody else chime in ffs
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Post by countjohn on Apr 24, 2024 1:19:12 GMT
I'd say Revolver and White Album are the best albums of their years I just don't think that's a particularly interesting thing to express, "Once I fix me, he's gonna miss me" is the ethos of without exaggeration thousands of breakup songs. And it's the same thing she's been singing about for the better part of a decade now. * I would rank The Beatles a bit differently myself - The White Album is more like Abbey Road to me........some filler, but some of the best music ever made.......I think they lose to Dylan in 65 / 66, The Stones - among others - in 68 / 69 .......but the great albums are coming so fast and furious in 68 / 69 anyway ............actually I could make a case for Pepper as only 3rd best in '67 behind The Who Sell Out and (especially) the Velvets but it is so creative and imaginative I probably rank it as 1 or 2 at least 33% of the time anyway * I'll say that for me it's quite an interesting thing to express in HOW she expresses it - both tossed off and far more overtly poetic (too much) than the last few years...............Pop stars rarely show the level of self aware weakness she shows here imo: We just talked about Beyonce's cover of Jolene NOT expressng weakness - in a cover of a song ABOUT weakness.........but it will be interesting to see how the record plays out over time.......I'm sure people are still pouring over this clusterfuck of songs and trying to sort it all out........I mean something is weird when I'm writing more about the album than the Taylor stans on MAR......... somebody else chime in ffs Agree on Abbey Road, Come Together is great but John was more interested in drugs and Yoko at that point, Something is one of the greatest songs of all time but Here Comes the Sun is fluff, and then Paul goes all the way into soft rock at that point, not nearly as into the medley as some people. Then the whole sound of is just canned. Revolver is perfect to me though, just as an album. Around 35 minutes and sequenced perfectly, it's just what an album should be. For 67 Velvet Underground are def no 1 and then probably The Kinks Something Else second. Then there's just so much stuff after that, Moody Blues Days of Future Passed, Piper at the Gates of Dawn, Are You Experienced, Smiley Smile, the Van Dyke Parks solo album Song Cycle where I'm one of 12 people who has listened to it. The US version of the Stones Between the Buttons with the singles holds up pretty well with Pepper too track for track. Not sure where I'd rank it. I don't know, is it really self aware weakness? "One day you'll regret this" is the most common defense mechanism after getting dumped but not how most people actually feel. I think Adele is a million times more vulnerable than Taylor is because she actually entertains the possibility that the other person was too good for her and it might be her fault, which is how 99% of people feel during a breakup even if you won't admit it to your friends. Weezer's Pinkerton tells us more about relationships in one album than Taylor has in her entire career unless I'm missing a revelatory album track from one of her early albums. Women used to write better breakup songs than men because they were more honest and male artists were usually worried about keeping face and looking cool. Now in the "girl boss era" I don't think there's really a difference. Not sure about this being remembered as her "magnum opus" either. Classic albums tend to be the transitional albums, not "artist at the peak of their fame doing their usual thing" albums. Red, 1989, and Folklore are going to be her classics. That'll be it unless she has some kind of major late career shift in sound or image like 80's Bowie or something.
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Post by countjohn on Apr 24, 2024 1:20:40 GMT
Everyone should be glad I'm back on the music forum so Pac isn't the only one bringing the actual music criticism. Was thinking of doing a big "top ten of each decade" thread to hopefully spark discussion because it used to be more active although now Taylor has sparked the music forum like the US economy during the Eras tour.
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Post by The_Cake_of_Roth on Apr 24, 2024 1:33:33 GMT
Agree on Abbey Road, Come Together is great but John was more interested in drugs and Yoko at that point, Something is one of the greatest songs of all time but Here Comes the Sun is fluff, and then Paul goes all the way into soft rock at that point, not nearly as into the medley as some people. Then the whole sound of is just canned.
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