|
|
Post by wallsofjericho on Dec 13, 2019 22:50:40 GMT
I think people expected the race between these two? Who do you think deserves it more. I did really like Driver but the performance had so much hype behind it and I can't say I was blown away completely but he does have some great scenes. I go with Phoenix. I think De Niro and Leo are better than both though.
|
|
|
|
Post by JangoB on Dec 13, 2019 22:52:47 GMT
Phoenix by far.
|
|
|
|
Post by pacinoyes on Dec 13, 2019 23:05:40 GMT
Well a lot of people I respect didn't care for Joker but I found it quite good and the performance the lead performance of the year (haven't seen Sandler). Everything - everything Driver did was on the page and he played the page - that was pretty terrific I liked it sure, but its not that hard - Jake G could have played it.....Gosling .....etc. At a certain point I want him to look like a real person and not a series of actor set-pieces - how about you just tell her you wish she was dead - and MEAN it and walk out; hated that fake scene But to me Phoenix created this particular performance out of mere scraps and fragments of things and took it to a place that was almost outside the actor - no actor thought through a role more than him this year and then delivered on his conceptualization. When he tells the woman at the end "you wouldn't get it" he has put so many little touches and specific strokes in place to make that statement genuinely frightening and insinuating - he does that continuously. You can say his film gave him too much room the other way, but to me it works in that movie setting. It's a tour de force and I like it a lot more than some of his acclaimed and overrated stuff (to me) even. |
|
|
|
Post by Viced on Dec 13, 2019 23:06:44 GMT
I think De Niro and Leo are better than both though. This. |
|
|
|
Post by DeepArcher on Dec 13, 2019 23:07:04 GMT
Lmao. Driver.
|
|
|
|
Post by Pittsnogle_Goggins on Dec 13, 2019 23:24:07 GMT
Have you already mentally prepared yourself for Phoenix’s inevitable win? |
|
|
|
Post by DeepArcher on Dec 13, 2019 23:29:55 GMT
Have you already mentally prepared yourself for Phoenix’s inevitable win? Yes, thanks for asking. |
|
|
|
Post by notacrook on Dec 14, 2019 0:59:37 GMT
It's very close. I give Driver the edge, but that may be due to recency bias. Both give top-tier performances.
|
|
|
|
Post by cheesecake on Dec 14, 2019 1:54:38 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by HELENA MARIA on Dec 14, 2019 3:16:29 GMT
Driver : 1st RU
Phoenix : 2nd RU
My winner being August Diehl for A Hidden Life.
My lineup :
Diehl *
Driver
Phoenix
De Niro
Schoenaerts/alt. Eddie Murphy
|
|
filmnoir
Full Member
Posts: 820
Likes: 408
|
Post by filmnoir on Dec 14, 2019 3:40:03 GMT
Driver, who has the tougher role. He has to be able to convey emotions without any gimmicks. And he is playing the character of his director. Marriage Story is based on Baumbach's marriage with Jennifer Jason Leigh.
The Joker has been done so many times.
|
|
|
|
Post by Tommen_Saperstein on Dec 14, 2019 3:53:38 GMT
Part of me wants to love Phoenix because he commits himself 100% to this hysterically frenetic characterization that is utterly absurd, and he only occasionally crosses the line from self-aware genius into laughable sincerity (not necessarily by any fault of his--the fact that he could even somewhat salvage this role on paper into something almost hypnotically watchable is a hugely tall order). He's a force of nature onscreen to be sure, but the movie around him and Todd Phillips' edgelord philosophizing is so stupid and rings so emotionally false and hollow that it holds me back from really being able to love the perf. Phoenix doesn't quite transcend his film's wrongheadedness the way McAvoy did in Split (although that movie also wasn't nearly as bad).
Driver is not only better enough on his own--more vulnerable, more accessible, more emotionally authentic, and tasked with the responsibility of actually creating a real person and not a half-baked cartoon creation--but he also has the benefit of being in a movie that isn't total dogshit, so Driver it is.
|
|
|
|
Post by countjohn on Dec 14, 2019 4:34:52 GMT
Definitely Phoenix for me. I think his performance is a bit overpraised in some quarters but I still think he should be nominated. Wouldn't even nod Driver. He was fine, but I thought it was a pretty perfunctory performance and not the kind of thing I'd consider for awards. There are a ton of solid performances like that in dramas every year.
|
|
|
|
Post by TheAlwaysClassy on Dec 14, 2019 4:52:07 GMT
Phoenix is probably my favorite working actor (top five anyways), but Driver blows him out of the water.
|
|
|
|
Post by The_Cake_of_Roth on Dec 14, 2019 5:28:14 GMT
Well a lot of people I respect didn't care for Joker but I found it quite good and the performance the lead performance of the year (haven't seen Sandler). Everything - everything Driver did was on the page and he played the page - that was pretty terrific I liked it sure, but its not that hard - Jake G could have played it.....Gosling .....etc. At a certain point I want him to look like a real person and not a series of actor set-pieces - how about you just tell her you wish she was dead - and MEAN it and walk out; hated that fake scene But to me Phoenix created this particular performance out of mere scraps and fragments of things and took it to a place that was almost outside the actor - no actor thought through a role more than him this year and then delivered on his conceptualization. When he tells the woman at the end "you wouldn't get it" he has put so many little touches and specific strokes in place to make that statement genuinely frightening and insinuating - he does that continuously. You can say his film gave him too much room the other way, but to me it works in that movie setting. It's a tour de force and I like it a lot more than some of his acclaimed and overrated stuff (to me) even. I responded a bit differently to the scene you put in spoilers, which I agree felt overwritten, sort of like a greatest hits compilation of several different arguments. As soon as Driver said that line though, I thought immediately that his character didn't mean it ("meaning" it would actually feel wrong for his character imo), so his apology at the end of the scene didn't feel artificial to me. |
|
|
|
Post by Tommen_Saperstein on Dec 14, 2019 7:15:17 GMT
Well a lot of people I respect didn't care for Joker but I found it quite good and the performance the lead performance of the year (haven't seen Sandler). Everything - everything Driver did was on the page and he played the page - that was pretty terrific I liked it sure, but its not that hard - Jake G could have played it.....Gosling .....etc. At a certain point I want him to look like a real person and not a series of actor set-pieces - how about you just tell her you wish she was dead - and MEAN it and walk out; hated that fake scene But to me Phoenix created this particular performance out of mere scraps and fragments of things and took it to a place that was almost outside the actor - no actor thought through a role more than him this year and then delivered on his conceptualization. When he tells the woman at the end "you wouldn't get it" he has put so many little touches and specific strokes in place to make that statement genuinely frightening and insinuating - he does that continuously. You can say his film gave him too much room the other way, but to me it works in that movie setting. It's a tour de force and I like it a lot more than some of his acclaimed and overrated stuff (to me) even. I responded a bit differently to the scene you put in spoilers, which I agree felt overwritten, sort of like a greatest hits compilation of several different arguments. As soon as Driver said that line though, I thought immediately that his character didn't mean it ("meaning" it would actually feel wrong for his character imo), so his apology at the end of the scene didn't feel artificial to me. yeah, that scene hit reeeeeaaaly close to home for me. Reminded me of arguments I've had with my mom. I never broke down crying afterwards but the fight/flight thing definitely kick in when you let your emotions get out of control and bubble over and say some hurtful shit you don't mean and we almost always apologized just minutes after. That scene was brilliant IMO. A volcano of emotion and catharsis that I understood on a really personal level, perfectly placed in the narrative and perfectly reflecting both the characters' personalities. It especially makes sense for Driver because he's so internal in addition to being sensitive, so all the anger has been building up inside for months by that point. |
|
|
|
Post by countjohn on Dec 14, 2019 7:34:14 GMT
Well a lot of people I respect didn't care for Joker but I found it quite good and the performance the lead performance of the year (haven't seen Sandler). Everything - everything Driver did was on the page and he played the page - that was pretty terrific I liked it sure, but its not that hard - Jake G could have played it.....Gosling .....etc. At a certain point I want him to look like a real person and not a series of actor set-pieces - how about you just tell her you wish she was dead - and MEAN it and walk out; hated that fake scene But to me Phoenix created this particular performance out of mere scraps and fragments of things and took it to a place that was almost outside the actor - no actor thought through a role more than him this year and then delivered on his conceptualization. When he tells the woman at the end "you wouldn't get it" he has put so many little touches and specific strokes in place to make that statement genuinely frightening and insinuating - he does that continuously. You can say his film gave him too much room the other way, but to me it works in that movie setting. It's a tour de force and I like it a lot more than some of his acclaimed and overrated stuff (to me) even. I responded a bit differently to the scene you put in spoilers, which I agree felt overwritten, sort of like a greatest hits compilation of several different arguments. As soon as Driver said that line though, I thought immediately that his character didn't mean it ("meaning" it would actually feel wrong for his character imo), so his apology at the end of the scene didn't feel artificial to me. I agree with you on his not meaning it, but I think that's the point. Most the audience knows that without telegraphing it by having him break down. That's just an excuse to have a "big acting moment" for his Oscar clip. It would have been a much more powerful moment if he'd just walked out afterward. |
|
|
|
Post by TerryMontana on Dec 14, 2019 14:32:15 GMT
Phoenix for me. Driver is great but Joaquin has everything: Body transformation, character development (character creation out of thin air, really), emotion, line delivery...
|
|
|
|
Post by Pittsnogle_Goggins on Dec 14, 2019 14:44:37 GMT
Part of me wants to love Phoenix because he commits himself 100% to this hysterically frenetic characterization that is utterly absurd, and he only occasionally crosses the line from self-aware genius into laughable sincerity (not necessarily by any fault of his--the fact that he could even somewhat salvage this role on paper into something almost hypnotically watchable is a hugely tall order). He's a force of nature onscreen to be sure, but the movie around him and Todd Phillips' edgelord philosophizing is so stupid and rings so emotionally false and hollow that it holds me back from really being able to love the perf. Phoenix doesn't quite transcend his film's wrongheadedness the way McAvoy did in Split (although that movie also wasn't nearly as bad). Driver is not only better enough on his own--more vulnerable, more accessible, more emotionally authentic, and tasked with the responsibility of actually creating a real person and not a half-baked cartoon creation--but he also has the benefit of being in a movie that isn't total dogshit, so Driver it is.Driver never felt like a real person to me. |
|
|
|
Post by Tommen_Saperstein on Dec 14, 2019 18:02:52 GMT
Part of me wants to love Phoenix because he commits himself 100% to this hysterically frenetic characterization that is utterly absurd, and he only occasionally crosses the line from self-aware genius into laughable sincerity (not necessarily by any fault of his--the fact that he could even somewhat salvage this role on paper into something almost hypnotically watchable is a hugely tall order). He's a force of nature onscreen to be sure, but the movie around him and Todd Phillips' edgelord philosophizing is so stupid and rings so emotionally false and hollow that it holds me back from really being able to love the perf. Phoenix doesn't quite transcend his film's wrongheadedness the way McAvoy did in Split (although that movie also wasn't nearly as bad). Driver is not only better enough on his own--more vulnerable, more accessible, more emotionally authentic, and tasked with the responsibility of actually creating a real person and not a half-baked cartoon creation--but he also has the benefit of being in a movie that isn't total dogshit, so Driver it is.Driver never felt like a real person to me. and Phoenix did??  I'm sorry dude, we must have been watching totally different films. |
|
|
|
Post by Tommen_Saperstein on Dec 14, 2019 18:08:50 GMT
I responded a bit differently to the scene you put in spoilers, which I agree felt overwritten, sort of like a greatest hits compilation of several different arguments. As soon as Driver said that line though, I thought immediately that his character didn't mean it ("meaning" it would actually feel wrong for his character imo), so his apology at the end of the scene didn't feel artificial to me. I agree with you on his not meaning it, but I think that's the point. Most the audience knows that without telegraphing it by having him break down. That's just an excuse to have a "big acting moment" for his Oscar clip. It would have been a much more powerful moment if he'd just walked out afterward. Come on, since when has Baumbach doctored his vision to be more appealing to Oscar voters. It's not an excuse to have a big Oscar moment, it's how fights can go down when you say something you don't mean after weeks and months of festering resentment and immediately regret it even before it comes out of your mouth. That happens. And the crying doesn't feel dishonest because Baumbach builds up to it, the emotions keep escalating and escalating until something is said that hurts both of them. Watching that scene reminded me of Revolutionary Road (and how much I hated Revolutionary Road) because we barely know DiCaprio and Winslet's characters before they're fighting with each other and none of that emotional rawness feels remotely earned. It's mechanical and theatrical and feels rehearsed. Johansson and Driver were IN that scene together playing off each other brilliantly. And it had already been established that Driver's character was a crier. He's a sensitive person. Why is anyone shocked that he cries in this movie?  |
|
|
|
Post by doddgerhardt on Dec 14, 2019 18:09:41 GMT
Driver.
|
|
|
|
Post by pacinoyes on Dec 14, 2019 18:39:47 GMT
I agree with you on his not meaning it, but I think that's the point. Most the audience knows that without telegraphing it by having him break down. That's just an excuse to have a "big acting moment" for his Oscar clip. It would have been a much more powerful moment if he'd just walked out afterward. Come on, since when has Baumbach doctored his vision to be more appealing to Oscar voters. It's not an excuse to have a big Oscar moment, it's how fights can go down when you say something you don't mean after weeks and months of festering resentment and immediately regret it even before it comes out of your mouth. That happens. And the crying doesn't feel dishonest because Baumbach builds up to it, the emotions keep escalating and escalating until something is said that hurts both of them. Watching that scene reminded me of Revolutionary Road (and how much I hated Revolutionary Road) because we barely know DiCaprio and Winslet's characters before they're fighting with each other and none of that emotional rawness feels remotely earned. It's mechanical and theatrical and feels rehearsed. Johansson and Driver were IN that scene together playing off each other brilliantly. And it had already been established that Driver's character was a crier. He's a sensitive person. Why is anyone shocked that he cries in this movie? Let me ask you this - at what point in this film did you hate either of these people? For me, not at all - that's a huge problem because if my couples friends were telling this story I'd expect at times to hate my male friend and my female friend at times regardless of who was telling it - but Baumbach doesn't want you to hate anyone even for a moment. There is no moment that compares with Dustin Hoffman's wine glass smash that suggests he may hit Streep if they weren't in a restaurant etc. - and that movie is better because of that scene too. Btw Revolutionary Road was a mistake in choice in the adaptation by Mendes the (great) novel wasn't like that ........but MS is a mistake in how it was designed/written to begin with to me - in trying to be fair to everyone he ended up with characters that don't actually resemble anyone - that I know anyway. |
|
|
|
Post by Tommen_Saperstein on Dec 14, 2019 19:26:26 GMT
Come on, since when has Baumbach doctored his vision to be more appealing to Oscar voters. It's not an excuse to have a big Oscar moment, it's how fights can go down when you say something you don't mean after weeks and months of festering resentment and immediately regret it even before it comes out of your mouth. That happens. And the crying doesn't feel dishonest because Baumbach builds up to it, the emotions keep escalating and escalating until something is said that hurts both of them. Watching that scene reminded me of Revolutionary Road (and how much I hated Revolutionary Road) because we barely know DiCaprio and Winslet's characters before they're fighting with each other and none of that emotional rawness feels remotely earned. It's mechanical and theatrical and feels rehearsed. Johansson and Driver were IN that scene together playing off each other brilliantly. And it had already been established that Driver's character was a crier. He's a sensitive person. Why is anyone shocked that he cries in this movie? There is no moment that compares with Dustin Hoffman's wine glass smash that suggests he may hit Streep if they weren't in a restaurant etc. - and that movie is better because of that scene too. Honestly that's what I loved most about the film and it's the most reflective of reality because there are always two sides to everything. I loved both of these characters and both of them loved each other (which is the whole point, that love doesn't end with divorce but simply that sometimes being together can become untenable if there's too much hurt). The point of the film is to examine this process of divorce (which hits close to home for me rn because my brother just divorced his wife) with as much compassion and understanding as possible. You can ultimately pick a side but Baumbach's approach actively discourages you from seeing these people as shitty people but instead as flawed people who have done irreparably shitty things and have to live with those mistakes and move on. Things are only one-sided when you're in them, and Baumbach never lets you inhabit just one POV. Didn't Ebert say that movies were 'machines that generated empathy?" Something like that anyways... I can't speak to how others approach/consume cinema but my love of cinema has always stemmed from a hunger to see and feel those kinds of connections. Marriage Story definitely did that for me. I didn't want to hate either of these people, and clearly Baumbach didn't either. There were his parents after all. As for them being realistic... I don't know. I related to Driver's character anyways (although I hate kids lol). The sensitive internal creative type. And the way Baumbach described their marriage via their opposing perspectives also made a lot of sense. She became attached to him but he wasn't a giver, not attentive enough, too self-involved, and that propelled her to the realization that she wasn't living for herself. Surely it's not a stretch to say without first running a straw poll that a lot of men can be like that. I mean, the movie matches the situation with my brother shockingly closely, and they both had a kid too... I don't what to say about Kramer vs. Kramer. I watched it for the first time a year or two ago and there wasn't a moment while I was watching where I didn't feel like this was just another studio melodrama elevated by the performances. MS hit a lot harder for me. |
|
|
|
Post by countjohn on Dec 14, 2019 19:59:38 GMT
Driver never felt like a real person to me. and Phoenix did?? I'm sorry dude, we must have been watching totally different films. He obviously blasts off into space at the end when he turns into the comic book joker (that's built into the premise) but for the first two acts Arthur absolutely feels like a real person. I've met people like that. |
|
