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Post by pupdurcs on Jul 2, 2019 3:44:00 GMT
Certain Great Actors get associated with particular he genres over the course of their careers, and that association in many ways begins to define them, their careers and how audiences perceive them. Jack Lemmon in comedy, Laurence Olivier in Shakespeare, Julie Andrews in musicals etc. Some actors managed to have an equal impact or association with multiple genres. Kirk Douglas for example made big impacts in historical epics, film noir and western. So yeah, a thread to talk about that (Edit) IF YOU WANT TO POST A PROFILE OF AN ACTOR, PLEASE RESPECTFULLY LIMIT IT TO ONE EVERY 24 HOURS.Ok, first off Johnny DeppGenre: Fantasy/FantasiaDepp is an actor that has had quite a few ups and downs in his career, and I haven't always been sold on his emotional range or dramatic depth as an actor. But what he is good at (mainly, physical comedy) makes him a mostly ideal avatar for this genre. Give this man a "make believe" scenario to allow his imagination to run wild, and he's energised. Sometimes to his determinant. There's maybe only so many times you can return to the well of white pancake make-up and funny voices in Tim Burton fantasies before people begin to somewhat find it gimmicky or trite (which did eventually happen), but ultimately two pieces of fantasy filmmaking ended up being defining points of Depp's career. Edward Scisscorhands, the first Depp/Burton collaboration, which after a stint as a pretty boy TV detective in 21 Jumpstreet, was arguably the film that first solidified him with critics as an actor of major skill and interest. The second fantasy film made him a box office megastar for a time and at first seemed like a culmination of all that was good about him, but in hindsight may have been the beginning of the unravelling of his career. Pirates Of the Caribbean, a hugely budgeted, comic fantasy about seafaring pirates....it allowed Depp to create an iconic theme park character for Disney. His Jack Sparrow was a fresh comic creation (based on a drunk Keith Richards) that went over like gangbusters with audiences, and convinced Hollywood and Depp that they had finally found a way to turn Depp's eccentricities as a performer into cold hard, box office cash. Depp went onto become a Disney fantasy franchise machine with diminishing returns (at least as an actor). And such is history. My favroite Depp fantasy is actually Sleepy Hollow. His Ichabod Crane is such a specific comic performance, before such things became overindulgient and gimmicky for Depp.
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Post by urbanpatrician on Jul 2, 2019 4:17:50 GMT
Good post.
Call my name once we get to Pacino for crime or Eastwood for Western or Keanu Reeves for general badassery.
Love Johnny Depp, but my favorite performances from him were NOT in fantasy films. Ed Wood and Black Mass are my TWO to beat by far. Donnie Brasco, Public Enemies, Sweeney Todd are also good shit. Decent in Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas and Sleepy Hollow. Some of those the films were better than the performance (Sleepy Follow, Public Enemies), but still...... the man behind the facade in Public Enemies is some of the best stuff he's ever done. I think he's good at playing the man behind the facade roles. Another guy I think does that well is Joaquin Phoenix.
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Post by pupdurcs on Jul 2, 2019 4:28:55 GMT
Good post. Call my name once we get to Pacino for crime or Eastwood for Western or Keanu Reeves for general badassery. Love Johnny Depp, but my favorite performances from him were NOT in fantasy films. Ed Wood and Black Mass are my TWO to beat by far. Donnie Brasco, Public Enemies, Sweeney Todd are also good shit. Decent in Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas and Sleepy Hollow. Some of those the films were better than the performance (Sleepy Follow, Public Enemies), but still...... the man behind the facade in Public Enemies is some of the best stuff he's ever done. I think he's good at playing the man behind the facade roles. Another guy I think does that well is Joaquin Phoenix. We'll get to those guys in detail, for sure. I think Depp is mainly defined by his fantasy work, but I'd say his best work falls out of it as well, though again, it relies heavily on his gift for physical comedy and Tim Burton. Ed Wood is his best for me as well.
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Post by pacinoyes on Jul 2, 2019 9:00:18 GMT
Depp to me is at his best outside that genre but agree in a mainstream Joe Popcorn sense that's how he's thought of. I have often said he was one of the 90s most interesting US actors - into the early 2000s in terms of his imagination and creativity. You would think Fantasy would be a perfect match and sometimes it was but sometimes it could stunt him too - because he could get lost in it.
In this genre he was at his best to me in something like From Hell which isn't exactly a fantasy film but presents Depp in a world that doesn't seem quite real or historical either - and that was his great talent - being distinctly warm, sensitive (for an American actor exceedingly poetic), and recognizable as an audience surrogate in something slightly "off" to us that he fit into.
He recognized something profound early on - take anyone of the GOAT level actors discussed on here - and cast them in what his Edward Scissorhands father-figure Vincent Price did so easily and they'd fall flat on their faces. Depp wanted to tap into that and recognized there were multiple levels to stardom, acting and to the movies he loved too. For a time he was able to shrewdly maneuver his way across acting styles and movie types.
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Post by pupdurcs on Jul 2, 2019 9:59:28 GMT
Molly RingwaldGenre: High School MovieIf you were of adolescent or high school age in the 1980's, Molly Ringwald might as well have been your Meryl Streep or Katherine Hepburn (or insert known "great" actress). Was she historically a great actress in their mould? No is the short answer. Not in the slightest. Was she even a "great actress" full stop? Well that is arguable. What's less arguable is the impact she made on an entire generation of teenagers, mostly through her seminal High School movie collaborations with the late John Hughes. Three movies made across the mid 1980's defined an era, particularly for teenage girls (and boys trying to figure out how these girls were thinking). Sixteen Candles, The Breakfast Club and Pretty In Pink. An unofficial trilogy of films that made Ringwald an icon for her generation. In many ways, Ringwald had a similar impact for teens in the 1980's as James Dean did in the 1950's with his work in Rebel Without A Cause & East Of Eden. Onscreen, Ringwald brought an unfussy truth and naturalism to these high school age roles that felt painfully real and painfully awkward, in a way that watching someone like Stockard Channing play a 32 year old teenager in Grease did not. Ringwald felt real to teenagers in a way many actors had not previously, and in conjunction with Hughes observant writing managed to distill the High School experience into something youngsters found believable, and remains the template for the genre to this day. Ringwald never quite broke out of the iconic stardom that genre gave her, though she has remained a steadily working actress. But for that brief shining moment in the 1980's, to an entire generation of teens, she was the truth.
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Post by pacinoyes on Jul 2, 2019 10:29:57 GMT
Well she is a good pick and she's deceptive across film history because to me, there's just 3 actors who typify the "American teenager" - a term which actually did not truly exist until the 40s - there was no "teenage culture" prior - teenagers worked to support families, when they could no longer work that class was born.
Dean, Ringwald and Travolta were the 3 - Travolta is odd at first but he had a hit TV show, a couple huge movies that played into it - he was on the pop music charts and box office charts and in the moment and in the past too - but Ringwald was the only one who was actually a teenager and a female so it cut very deep. She was a lovely awkward presence and very much remains so.
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demille
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Post by demille on Jul 2, 2019 12:30:04 GMT
Well she is a good pick and she's deceptive across film history because to me, there's just 3 actors who typify the "American teenager" - a term which actually did not truly exist until the 40s - there was no "teenage culture" prior - teenagers worked to support families, when they could no longer work that class was born. Dean, Ringwald and Travolta were the 3 - Travolta is odd at first but he had a hit TV show, a couple huge movies that played into it - he was on the pop music charts and box office charts and in the moment and in the past too - but Ringwald was the only one who was actually a teenager and a female so it cut very deep. She was a lovely awkward presence and very much remains so. I always considered Michael J. Fox an interesting and important figure in regards to the American teenager. His teenager went against the grain of the teenager trope that was developed with Dean; he wasn't the typical rebel or misfit, but instead a productive and ambitious individiual. His characters in Family Ties and Back to the Future are iconic and the Back to the Future movies were a phenomenon, which seems to suggest that he brought something new to the trope that struck a chord in the 80s. The habitat of Fox's teenager was never as much the High School as with the other figures, and I do realise that this is the genre pupdurcs is discussing, but I think the absence of this environment is interesting too.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2019 12:32:47 GMT
Hm... Jackie Chan and martial arts films? Pam Grier and Blaxploitation?
Katharine Hepburn and Spencer Tracy on romantic comedies?
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Post by TerryMontana on Jul 2, 2019 15:23:46 GMT
Or how about Hugh Grant in (mostly British) romantic comedies?
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Post by pupdurcs on Jul 2, 2019 15:32:52 GMT
Hm... Jackie Chan and martial arts films? Pam Grier and Blaxploitation? Katharine Hepburn and Spencer Tracy on romantic comedies? Yeah, this thread could pretty much go on indefinitely. All these are great choices to cover at some point
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Post by pupdurcs on Jul 2, 2019 17:40:28 GMT
Well she is a good pick and she's deceptive across film history because to me, there's just 3 actors who typify the "American teenager" - a term which actually did not truly exist until the 40s - there was no "teenage culture" prior - teenagers worked to support families, when they could no longer work that class was born. Dean, Ringwald and Travolta were the 3 - Travolta is odd at first but he had a hit TV show, a couple huge movies that played into it - he was on the pop music charts and box office charts and in the moment and in the past too - but Ringwald was the only one who was actually a teenager and a female so it cut very deep. She was a lovely awkward presence and very much remains so. I always considered Michael J. Fox an interesting and important figure in regards to the American teenager. His teenager went against the grain of the teenager trope that was developed with Dean; he wasn't the typical rebel or misfit, but instead a productive and ambitious individiual. His characters in Family Ties and Back to the Future are iconic and the Back to the Future movies were a phenomenon, which seems to suggest that he brought something new to the trope that struck a chord in the 80s. The habitat of Fox's teenager was never as much the High School as with the other figures, and I do realise that this is the genre pupdurcs is discussing, but I think the absence of this environment is interesting too. Fox is interesting, and he was clearly a believable teen circa the Back To The Future films and Teen Wolf. Though I'm sure he was in his 20's when he made those films (like Dean was in his pictures). I just don't think he had anywhere near the same impact upon teens as a sort of mirror to their own lives that Ringwald and James Dean did, because his teenage experience was so wedded to other genre trappings (horror-comedy, sci-fi). Fox was a believable teen in far-out escapist movies, but his films didn't reflect the real reality of any teens because of the fantastic elements. Because the films of Dean and Ringwald remained resolutely grounded in reality, they made a kind of impact with the intended audience that would be difficult to replicate otherwise.
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Post by pupdurcs on Jul 2, 2019 18:06:35 GMT
When I think of it, the 1970's was mostly an awful time for teen representation in movies. No one was really believable, aside from Robby Benson (google him) who was an annoying drip of wet lettuce. Aside from him, almost all the "teens" in 70"s cinema felt like actors in their 20's + faking it.
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Post by pacinoyes on Jul 2, 2019 18:16:55 GMT
I would say Fox is interesting more in the Alex Keaton angle than Back to The Future since he didn't really reflect youth culture in BTTF but he did sort of represent teenage ideas (milkshakes/burgers, Rock and Roll, girls, cars etc) - but Keaton was the very first picture of Reagan Youth (which of course is the name of a band as well) on American TV. For a TV show that was right on top of things - you could even call someone an "Alex P. Keaton" type and know what that means. But Travolta is the real interesting one of the big 3 (with Dean and Ringwald) because he sort of monopolized the youth market industry for a time in the 70s - he made Welcome Back Kotter, Saturday Night Fever, Grease, Carrie.........two monster hit films - all while under 24, younger than Dean and Fox. 5 albums......some hits too......and his roles in the movies were a huge part of youth culture - what is SNF but an updated Rebel Without A Cause anyway and in Saturday Night Fever he's iconic in that same James Dean way - even from how he walks down the street in the opening or combs his hair. He was the James Dean/Timothée Chalamet of his day
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Post by pupdurcs on Jul 2, 2019 18:42:28 GMT
There is no big 3 of teen performers ( it's not such an easily reductive topic), and Travolta was certainly never one of them even if there was. The guy always, always read as a full grown adult man. You played along with it because you had no choice, but Travolta was about as accurately repreventative of actual teens as Lee Marvin. Travolta represented the fake Hollywood teen was clearly 28 and shaving every day, that was passed off on youth culture. I love Grease, but everyone in that felt like 20's actors playing teens.
It's why the emergence of someone like Ringwald was such a game changer for youth culture. People had spent so long being fed unbelievably fake (but entertaining) "teens" like Travolta, that it was a shock to the system to see believable teens like Ringwald.
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Post by pacinoyes on Jul 2, 2019 18:53:43 GMT
Disagree - to me it's obvious there's a big 3 of teens and 2 men - and Ringwald isn't a reaction to Travolta she represents a new era emerging - even down to music - post punk/New Wave. Travolta was younger than Dean and looked it imo - heck Dean played older in Giant for Godsakes - Travolta never did that - he'd be preposterous with grey hair . You want to talk about "playing along with it" talk to me about Dean/Harris/Van Fleet and their ages and get back to me. Saturday Night Fever is Rebel Without A Cause right down to the Sal Mineo character - it's obvious, and like I said he had teen pop hits and the two biggest teen movies that ever existed at that time...... it is what it is, just disagree I guess.
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Post by pupdurcs on Jul 2, 2019 19:09:13 GMT
Giant was not part of Dean representing teen angst. He only did it for the two movies I actually mentioned, and at the time it felt real in terms of the emotional retardation and so on that a lot of teens felt. Dean articulated their frustrations and emotions on screen in a believable way for the first time, despite being a few years overage.
Travolta as this hyper-confident 6"2 Adonis never, ever felt like a teen in any movie. It was Hollywood bullshit. I can name about two dozen actors who were more believable representative of teens than Travolta. Shit, I've never even thought of him as a "teen" actor (despite knowing he played teen roles) till you brought it up.
I think maybe you are too used to reducing everything to a "Big 3" or something similar whether it be best actor of their generation debates or what have you, but it doesn't work here. And certainly not for Travolta.
Anthony Michael Hall and Cory Feldman (& Haim) are far more important in film history in terms of accurately reflecting teens than Travolta ever was.
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Post by pacinoyes on Jul 2, 2019 19:23:11 GMT
Giant was not part of Dean representing teen angst. Anthony Michael Hall and Cory Feldman are far more important in film history in terms of accurately reflecting teens than Travolta ever was. The point was he could do it and get away with it because he looked old. He's far less convincing to me than Travolta who again, is actually younger than Dean and in more young work. Dean could play a man with grey hair - that means something. As for Hall and Feldman - they aren't in the 2 biggest teen films ever -2 of the biggest films ever regardless of type - so, no, they lose too and anyone else you name. It's hard to argue how big he was when he has that - that's unarguable, it's just a fact - he's one of the big 3 in this genre to me no question.
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Post by pupdurcs on Jul 2, 2019 19:25:28 GMT
Yeah...I see you are going to stick to this no matter what. You are exceedingly wrong on this. To a preposterous degree, but I don't want this to turn into another game of one-upmanship, so...
...Let's move on....
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2019 19:37:57 GMT
Bette Davis and Joan Crawford with "Hagsploitation"
John Wayne and Clint Eastwood with the Western
Vincent Price with Horror
Julia Roberts and the Romantic Comedy
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Post by pacinoyes on Jul 2, 2019 19:41:56 GMT
Bette Davis and Joan Crawford with "Hagsploitation" I don't know if that's a known term or you just invented it yourself Tyler but bravo
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Post by pupdurcs on Jul 2, 2019 20:05:55 GMT
Gene Kelly
Genre: Musical/Dance
In the annals of film history, the ongoing debate as to who is the greatest film dancer ever almost always comes back to two men. Fred Astaire & Gene Kelly. It's as perverse a debate as Federer or Nadal, Pacino or DeNiro, Pele or Maradonna or MJ or Lebron.
Before Kelly, there was Astaire. A graceful, balletic, nimble footed ballroom specialist who could take your breath away. Kelly was almost the exact opposite. Aggressive, athletic ,dynamic....more suited to dancing solo than with any partner. Kelly never really had his Ginger Rogers.
Kelly was an extraordinary choreographer and also a harsh taskmaster and perfectionist. His work on Singin' In The Rain, An American In Paris & On The Town is legendary and still influencing choregraphy today. The fact that he was seen as one of the greatest dancers ever obscured what a fine singing voice he had for musicals.
Fred is great. But I've always been more of a Gene guy myself. Anyway, this never gets old:
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2019 20:11:13 GMT
Bette Davis and Joan Crawford with "Hagsploitation" I don't know if that's a known term or you just invented it yourself Tyler but bravo Psycho-Biddy - Hagsploitation is another name - they're all quite cruel.
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Post by pacinoyes on Jul 2, 2019 20:26:00 GMT
I'm not much of a musical guy but when I think of these 2 guys I think of this scene with Astaire and Rogers - gets me every time, and it reminds us movie lovers that there are very few things in cinema that aren't about context. I wouldn't watch Top Hat on its own but the fact that it's used in this other great film gives it a power over me that I can't resist watching.
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Post by pacinoyes on Jul 2, 2019 22:16:36 GMT
Al PacinoGenre: Crime/Police FilmI know urbanpatrician raised doing Pacino in crime and we can do that too but I'd like to narrow it down a bit and look at the police side of the crime film only which is where I think he's at his most special. In 5 films spanning over 30 years he changed the way we see a single actor in this type of film: Serpico, Cruising, Sea of Love, Heat and Insomnia and how he highlights different aspects of the role, genre and the general cop psychology itself. The reason cops are important to movies is they come across the widest array of people, daily - so they should project the widest range of emotional landscapes too. The honest cop, the relentlessly driven cop, the undercover cop who loses himself, the lonely cop, the corrupt cop - sometimes you get a role that highlights one aspect but across 5 roles that's unheard of as far as I see it (Harvey Keitel is somewhat close I'd say). With Pacino and those 5 roles they dovetailed into an overwhelming tapestry between the actor and the genre and their thought patterns he as an actor projects to audiences - when his Will Dormer (Insomnia) breaks the law it cuts deeper because that's Serpico breaking the law. Here's 2 clips - one from Cruising where he confesses that he's in effect inept and he can't do the job......one from Insomnia where he's arrogant and bullies his peers particularly in pretending to make a point about his partner testifying against him. There's a world of difference between these 2 men, 2 scenes, 2 cops and this genre of films would look quite different without his contribution to it.
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Post by fiosnasiob on Jul 3, 2019 0:05:25 GMT
Jacky's big (BIG) Bro., Sammo Hung. Speaking about choreographer, here is truly a Master one, a fight choreographer, at 18 he was (and since few years already) a choreographer on A Touch of Zen (a Cannes Festival award winning film) but Sammo is much more than that, he's simply one of the greatest and most influencial martial arts movies artists that ever lived. First he was an anomally, an overweight guy with a Buddha belly but he had an insane amount of speed and agility with a grace that would make the best ballet dancer jealous. Just during his 20's he starred AND directed some of the greatest classics of the genre (The Prodigal Son, Warriors Two, Spooky Encounters...), helped to popularize sub-genre like kung-fu comedy as well as pionneering the Martial Arts Comedy horror. Unlike his friend Jacky, he never really got the popularity and success he deserved outside of Asia (he's probably best known in the West for the TV show Martial Law) but his fingerprints on the genre is massive and unique.
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