cherry68
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Post by cherry68 on May 29, 2019 5:24:39 GMT
@redhawk10 Pregnancies after a rape aren't that common, and they surely don't represent the majority of the abortions. Besides, when a girl is raped, she usually goes to the hospital where she can receive the so called day after pill, or ask for an abortion before the heartbeat is detected. The heartbeat law doesn't forbid this. I'm not sure where you're getting this information about what girls "usually" do following being raped. You're clearly not thinking this through. What about very young girls? What about girls who are raped by a family member? Many rapes go (at the very least initially) unreported due to the trauma experienced by the victim. That's what happens in the majority of cases. In Italy, for instance, you can go to a pharmacy and get the day after pill even if you are underage and you don't have a doctor's prescription. But the point is, I can see the reasons behind an abortion in case of rape. But these cases and medical reasons don't represent the majority of abortions. The women who say, my body, my choice are using these painful situations and extreme cases to advocate an universal right to terminate a life in any situation, and that's really horrible.
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Post by IceTruckDexter on May 29, 2019 10:51:04 GMT
Morally bankrupt? Are you fucking serious? First of all you've provided no facts at all but assertions at your woman's motives. Secondly, fetus is Latin for child. Third, the medical term is infants not baby. If abortion is not murder then what else is it? It's undeniably human with heartbeats, pain receptors, brain activity. The only intellectually lazy and morally bankrupt people I've seen here are you and your fellow disgusting pro choice scumbags. Hmm. "Fetus" in Latin, when used as a noun, roughly translates to "what is brought forth", not "child". Although, even if you were right, I'm not sure what relevance that would have anyway. There are plenty of examples of words in the English language that originate from elsewhere that don't (or no longer - language always evolves over time) carry the exact meaning as the source. Anyway, I don't think anyone here is denying that a potential human life is being ended in the case of an abortion (just as no one would argue a human life is being ended when someone in a coma with even the slightest potential of regaining regular function gets the plug pulled - now, saying they were "murdered" is another story). That would be nonsensical. The argument is that women who have been raped, face serious medical problems with a pregnancy/eventual birth, etc. should not face a penalty imposed by the government for having an abortion. Sure, a woman who "frivolously" performs abortions for no reason may have something wrong with them. I don't see why those instances mean that the government is justified in forcibly denying the other very common, very reasonable and - unfortunately - often very horrifying cases (victims of rape, incest) I mentioned earlier the right to terminate a pregnancy. And what do you think 'what is brought forth' means?
Your coma is example is terrible. Usually when someone is taken off life support it's because the patient has given pre-determined permission to do that. Fairly certain no fetus has ever given permission to be killed. As for the rape argument, less than 1% of abortions are from rape cases and it still doesn't matter. You're basically killing the child for the father's crimes. Do we do that to the born children? A woman's convenience or wishes shouldn't matter.
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2019 19:12:36 GMT
Hmm. "Fetus" in Latin, when used as a noun, roughly translates to "what is brought forth", not "child". Although, even if you were right, I'm not sure what relevance that would have anyway. There are plenty of examples of words in the English language that originate from elsewhere that don't (or no longer - language always evolves over time) carry the exact meaning as the source. Anyway, I don't think anyone here is denying that a potential human life is being ended in the case of an abortion (just as no one would argue a human life is being ended when someone in a coma with even the slightest potential of regaining regular function gets the plug pulled - now, saying they were "murdered" is another story). That would be nonsensical. The argument is that women who have been raped, face serious medical problems with a pregnancy/eventual birth, etc. should not face a penalty imposed by the government for having an abortion. Sure, a woman who "frivolously" performs abortions for no reason may have something wrong with them. I don't see why those instances mean that the government is justified in forcibly denying the other very common, very reasonable and - unfortunately - often very horrifying cases (victims of rape, incest) I mentioned earlier the right to terminate a pregnancy. And what do you think 'what is brought forth' means?
Your coma is example is terrible. Usually when someone is taken off life support it's because the patient has given pre-determined permission to do that. Fairly certain no fetus has ever given permission to be killed. As for the rape argument, less than 1% of abortions are from rape cases and it still doesn't matter. You're basically killing the child for the father's crimes. Do we do that to the born children? A woman's convenience or wishes shouldn't matter.
Exactly what it says, which isn't "child". Yes, some people have given their permission to pull the plug. Others haven't, and it's done anyway. It's sad, but certainly should not be illegal. You're asserting that the lack of permission given by...the fetus...overrides the wishes/physical health/mental health of the woman (or girl) who is burdened with bringing the life into the world. If you feel that strongly, I don't think we're going to see eye to eye here. "Killing the child for the father's crimes" is an extremely bizarre way to frame a girl not going through with a pregnancy after being raped. I would without hesitation put the wishes of a 13 year old girl who was raped by her uncle over the government positing the wishes of the fetus inside her. I'm a bit stunned this is even a question.
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cherry68
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Post by cherry68 on May 29, 2019 19:42:18 GMT
^
fētŭs masculine noun IV declension
View the declension of this word
1 fetus or foetus, young in womb 2 embryo 3 (animals) offspring or young 4 (of a parent) children 5 brood or litter 6 young in womb 7 birth or bringing forth young 8 (eggs) laying 9 bearing young, breeding 10 conception 11 fruit of plant 12 produce or crop 13 offshoot, branch, sucker, sapling 14 bearing fruit
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cherry68
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Post by cherry68 on May 29, 2019 20:00:50 GMT
I'm against abortion (unless the mother's life is in danger) because it means killing an innocent life, but I can understand that a girl who has been raped is living a devastating experience and maybe her choice can be obnubilated by her pain.
But let's not forget what the heartbeat law says:
- Abortion is permitted when the life of the mother is in danger. - Abortion is permitted in the first weeks.
So basically someone is complaining because they can't have an abortion whenever they like, acting as if abortion were totally banned.
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Post by IceTruckDexter on May 29, 2019 21:00:55 GMT
And what do you think 'what is brought forth' means?
Your coma is example is terrible. Usually when someone is taken off life support it's because the patient has given pre-determined permission to do that. Fairly certain no fetus has ever given permission to be killed. As for the rape argument, less than 1% of abortions are from rape cases and it still doesn't matter. You're basically killing the child for the father's crimes. Do we do that to the born children? A woman's convenience or wishes shouldn't matter.
Exactly what it says, which isn't "child". Yes, some people have given their permission to pull the plug. Others haven't, and it's done anyway. It's sad, but certainly should not be illegal. You're asserting that the lack of permission given by...the fetus...overrides the wishes/physical health/mental health of the woman (or girl) who is burdened with bringing the life into the world. If you feel that strongly, I don't think we're going to see eye to eye here. "Killing the child for the father's crimes" is an extremely bizarre way to frame a girl not going through with a pregnancy after being raped. I would without hesitation put the wishes of a 13 year old girl who was raped by her uncle over the government positing the wishes of the fetus inside her. I'm a bit stunned this is even a question. It means child you plank.
Yeah and pulling the plug on someone who hasn't given permission is an extremely sketchy thing to do. Also I never said you shouldn't consider the physical health of the woman. As for framing things in a bizarre way, you're saying it's a burden for women to be pregnant like their lives are over. What kind of scumbag are you?
That's exactly what this is. You're giving a death sentence to the child for the crime of the father. How can you be stunned by this when a lot of the debate around abortion is around this?
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2019 21:37:14 GMT
Exactly what it says, which isn't "child". Yes, some people have given their permission to pull the plug. Others haven't, and it's done anyway. It's sad, but certainly should not be illegal. You're asserting that the lack of permission given by...the fetus...overrides the wishes/physical health/mental health of the woman (or girl) who is burdened with bringing the life into the world. If you feel that strongly, I don't think we're going to see eye to eye here. "Killing the child for the father's crimes" is an extremely bizarre way to frame a girl not going through with a pregnancy after being raped. I would without hesitation put the wishes of a 13 year old girl who was raped by her uncle over the government positing the wishes of the fetus inside her. I'm a bit stunned this is even a question. It means child you plank.
Yeah and pulling the plug on someone who hasn't given permission is an extremely sketchy thing to do. Also I never said you shouldn't consider the physical health of the woman. As for framing things in a bizarre way, you're saying it's a burden for women to be pregnant like their lives are over. What kind of scumbag are you?
That's exactly what this is. You're giving a death sentence to the child for the crime of the father. How can you be stunned by this when a lot of the debate around abortion is around this?
I respectfully disagree with your erroneous interpretation of what the word means in Latin, but as I said earlier, that's not overly relevant to anything. How is being pregnant not a burden for a woman to carry? Of course individual experience will vary, but literally everyone I've ever met who has been pregnant have said it's a very tough process for all sorts of reasons. Not to mention that giving birth is notoriously one of the more painful things a human being can experience. Pointing that out makes me a scumbag? Or are you just hurling insults at me because I disagree with you? I don't like the idea of abortions. It's a very unpleasant situation. But I definitely like the idea of our virtuous government dictating whether or not a woman can perform one even less. You seem to feel very strongly that the needs of a fetus override those of rape victims. Gotcha. As I said, if you really believe this, we're not going to see eye to eye.
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Post by IceTruckDexter on May 29, 2019 21:59:10 GMT
It means child you plank.
Yeah and pulling the plug on someone who hasn't given permission is an extremely sketchy thing to do. Also I never said you shouldn't consider the physical health of the woman. As for framing things in a bizarre way, you're saying it's a burden for women to be pregnant like their lives are over. What kind of scumbag are you?
That's exactly what this is. You're giving a death sentence to the child for the crime of the father. How can you be stunned by this when a lot of the debate around abortion is around this?
I respectfully disagree with your erroneous interpretation of what the word means in Latin, but as I said earlier, that's not overly relevant to anything. How is being pregnant not a burden for a woman to carry? Of course individual experience will vary, but literally everyone I've ever met who has been pregnant have said it's a very tough process for all sorts of reasons. Not to mention that giving birth is notoriously one of the more painful things a human being can experience. Pointing that out makes me a scumbag? Or are you just hurling insults at me because I disagree with you? I don't like the idea of abortions. It's a very unpleasant situation. But I definitely like the idea of our virtuous government dictating whether or not a woman can perform one even less. You seem to feel very strongly that the needs of a fetus override those of rape victims. Gotcha. As I said, if you really believe this, we're not going to see eye to eye. Well I disrespectfully abhor your opinions because it calls for the deaths of the innocents.
Of course it's a tough process but clearly a worthwhile one. What kind of mindset do you have to think a child is just a burden. If you ever have any kids then I'd feel sorry for them.
Well I don't like slavery. It's a horrible situation but I definitely don't like the idea of your virtuous government dictating if people can't keep other people as their property.
Yeah clearly and clearly I'm the one in the right here.
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cherry68
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Post by cherry68 on May 29, 2019 22:06:31 GMT
@redhawk10
I'm afraid you met a bunch of whiny babies. Giving birth to a child is really painful. That's why there's epidural anesthesia for the ones who don't want to feel the pain.
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2019 23:01:49 GMT
I respectfully disagree with your erroneous interpretation of what the word means in Latin, but as I said earlier, that's not overly relevant to anything. How is being pregnant not a burden for a woman to carry? Of course individual experience will vary, but literally everyone I've ever met who has been pregnant have said it's a very tough process for all sorts of reasons. Not to mention that giving birth is notoriously one of the more painful things a human being can experience. Pointing that out makes me a scumbag? Or are you just hurling insults at me because I disagree with you? I don't like the idea of abortions. It's a very unpleasant situation. But I definitely like the idea of our virtuous government dictating whether or not a woman can perform one even less. You seem to feel very strongly that the needs of a fetus override those of rape victims. Gotcha. As I said, if you really believe this, we're not going to see eye to eye. Well I disrespectfully abhor your opinions because it calls for the deaths of the innocents.
Of course it's a tough process but clearly a worthwhile one. What kind of mindset do you have to think a child is just a burden. If you ever have any kids then I'd feel sorry for them.
Well I don't like slavery. It's a horrible situation but I definitely don't like the idea of your virtuous government dictating if people can't keep other people as their property.
Yeah clearly and clearly I'm the one in the right here.
I never said it was "just" a burden or not worthwhile, but it is definitely a burden on the person who is pregnant. Our differences lie in the fact that for me, there are too many cases where a girl choosing to have an abortion is reasonable to make it illegal. If that makes me a bloodthirsty lunatic from where you're standing, I don't know what to tell you. You can apply the unbelievably dumb logic that went into the "pro-choice = fine with slavery" analogy to just about anything. Let's not bitch about intellectual laziness if we're going to go down that route, OK? You don't seem like the kind of person who changes their mind very often (which I'm sure you see as a good thing), so I'm happy to drop the argument here. Feel free to get the last word in by calling me a shithead or scumbag or something if you really can't resist giving in to that dumbass part of yourself, lol.
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Post by IceTruckDexter on May 30, 2019 0:13:14 GMT
Well I disrespectfully abhor your opinions because it calls for the deaths of the innocents.
Of course it's a tough process but clearly a worthwhile one. What kind of mindset do you have to think a child is just a burden. If you ever have any kids then I'd feel sorry for them.
Well I don't like slavery. It's a horrible situation but I definitely don't like the idea of your virtuous government dictating if people can't keep other people as their property.
Yeah clearly and clearly I'm the one in the right here.
I never said it was "just" a burden or not worthwhile, but it is definitely a burden on the person who is pregnant. Our differences lie in the fact that for me, there are too many cases where a girl choosing to have an abortion is reasonable to make it illegal. If that makes me a bloodthirsty lunatic from where you're standing, I don't know what to tell you. You can apply the unbelievably dumb logic that went into the "pro-choice = fine with slavery" analogy to just about anything. Let's not bitch about intellectual laziness if we're going to go down that route, OK? You don't seem like the kind of person who changes their mind very often (which I'm sure you see as a good thing), so I'm happy to drop the argument here. Feel free to get the last word in by calling me a shithead or scumbag or something if you really can't resist giving in to that dumbass part of yourself, lol. Yet you make it sound like it is nothing but a burden. Even if I was to grant you those hard and extreme cases, you still won't stop the other cases of convenience and negligence because of an ideology that if you don't make it available for all women then they're basically slaves which is moronic.
Fine I'll make it about the Holocaust. Those Jews weren't people, they were rats and didn't deserve protection and their right to live. They were burdens on the noble Aryan Christians of Europe and were the problems of all the world.
I do change my mind, I use to be pro-choice. Scumbag.
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2019 0:51:38 GMT
I never said it was "just" a burden or not worthwhile, but it is definitely a burden on the person who is pregnant. Our differences lie in the fact that for me, there are too many cases where a girl choosing to have an abortion is reasonable to make it illegal. If that makes me a bloodthirsty lunatic from where you're standing, I don't know what to tell you. You can apply the unbelievably dumb logic that went into the "pro-choice = fine with slavery" analogy to just about anything. Let's not bitch about intellectual laziness if we're going to go down that route, OK? You don't seem like the kind of person who changes their mind very often (which I'm sure you see as a good thing), so I'm happy to drop the argument here. Feel free to get the last word in by calling me a shithead or scumbag or something if you really can't resist giving in to that dumbass part of yourself, lol. Yet you make it sound like it is nothing but a burden. Even if I was to grant you those hard and extreme cases, you still won't stop the other cases of convenience and negligence because of an ideology that if you don't make it available for all women then they're basically slaves which is moronic.
Fine I'll make it about the Holocaust. Those Jews weren't people, they were rats and didn't deserve protection and their right to live. They were burdens on the noble Aryan Christians of Europe and were the problems of all the world.
I do change my mind, I use to be pro-choice. Scumbag.
The funny thing is I agree with you that there're plenty of cases that I wouldn't agree with someone pursuing an abortion. And I also understand what Cherry has said about being rubbed the wrong way about some people's attitudes towards it. But for me, that just doesn't outweigh those other cases. Fair enough, then I take back that comment. Although I think I'm safe in assuming you don't look back at your past self and judge him as being as bad as a Nazi or otherwise abhorrent scumbag.
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Post by IceTruckDexter on May 30, 2019 1:37:21 GMT
Yet you make it sound like it is nothing but a burden. Even if I was to grant you those hard and extreme cases, you still won't stop the other cases of convenience and negligence because of an ideology that if you don't make it available for all women then they're basically slaves which is moronic.
Fine I'll make it about the Holocaust. Those Jews weren't people, they were rats and didn't deserve protection and their right to live. They were burdens on the noble Aryan Christians of Europe and were the problems of all the world.
I do change my mind, I use to be pro-choice. Scumbag.
The funny thing is I agree with you that there're plenty of cases that I wouldn't agree with someone pursuing an abortion. And I also understand what Cherry has said about being rubbed the wrong way about some people's attitudes towards it. But for me, that just doesn't outweigh those other cases. Fair enough, then I take back that comment. Although I think I'm safe in assuming you don't look back at your past self and judge him as being as bad as a Nazi or otherwise abhorrent scumbag. I never called you a Nazi or slave owner nor would I but you are trying to justify something that is objectively abhorrent. Either you're confused or you're consumed by your ideology that you can't see straight.
I look back on that kid and think he was stupid.
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2019 13:09:23 GMT
Curious - Do those of you who vehemently oppose abortion under nearly all circumstances also support laws that would demand more of fathers?
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Post by pacinoyes on May 30, 2019 14:28:41 GMT
Curious - Do those of you who vehemently oppose abortion under nearly all circumstances also support laws that would demand more of fathers? Well........not my fight, but I would think this is a no-brainer slam dunk. That would be a moral position and the moral position (again, imo) is all on the pro-life side as I said earlier. My (pro-choice) position is the rather cruel one - privacy rights trump the moral positioning.........but everything that flows from the moral argument would support more responsibility from fathers - it's actually part of their argument/justification: with abortion, both genders can abdicate any responsibility whatsoever etc.
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Zeb31
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Post by Zeb31 on May 30, 2019 14:40:47 GMT
Curious - Do those of you who vehemently oppose abortion under nearly all circumstances also support laws that would demand more of fathers? Adding to this, the same must be asked about expectant mothers getting government assistance to support themselves: free access to contraceptives in the first place, and then free access to State-subsidized healthcare (consultations, medication, dietary supplements), paid maternity and paternity leave, welfare support, whatever's needed.
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2019 15:16:09 GMT
Curious - Do those of you who vehemently oppose abortion under nearly all circumstances also support laws that would demand more of fathers? Well........not my fight, but I would think this is a no-brainer slam dunk. That would be a moral position and the moral position (again, imo) is all on the pro-life side as I said earlier. I think that this would be true if Republicans were actually "pro-Life" (i.e. supportive of common sense gun control, universal healthcare, greater access to quality education, and protections for the environment), not just "pro-Birth." There is no morality in forcing a woman to do something she isn't ready and/or capable of doing, and then providing her no assistance with the task. How about a law which states that the only place where a man can legally ejaculate is inside a woman's vagina? I wonder how the tables would turn if a man's right to privacy and autonomy were threatened.
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cherry68
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Post by cherry68 on Jun 1, 2019 4:44:16 GMT
Curious - Do those of you who vehemently oppose abortion under nearly all circumstances also support laws that would demand more of fathers? I'm not familiar with American laws on this. In Italy, fathers are obliged to recognize the paternity of the child (if they refuse and there's a clue they might be the father, they are obliged to get the DNA test. Refusing to take the test allows the court to declare the paternity), and this means full support for the baby (financially but even morally / taking care of him/her and so on). Children born outside a marriage have the exact same rights as the others. On the other side, mothers aren't obliged to do the same. They are free to decide to leave the child in the hospital after birth and not being named in the birth certificate (this law is to avoid abortion or clandestine births, especially from illegal immigrants who can count on a safe birth in an hospital without even declaring their name). Almost all medical needs (doctors, exams, echographies and so on) are free for all the women during pregnancy, so is medical assistance for babies and children. A working mother can have a paid maternity leave of 5 months after the baby's birth. If her pregnancy is a risky one, she can have a paid leave during any moment of it. Fathers can take few weeks of paternity leave as well after the birth of the child.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2019 14:01:08 GMT
Curious - Do those of you who vehemently oppose abortion under nearly all circumstances also support laws that would demand more of fathers? I'm not familiar with American laws on this. In Italy, fathers are obliged to recognize the paternity of the child (if they refuse and there's a clue they might be the father, they are obliged to get the DNA test. Refusing to take the test allows the court to declare the paternity), and this means full support for the baby (financially but even morally / taking care of him/her and so on). Children born outside a marriage have the exact same rights as the others. American law doesn't really differ in this way, but I'm wondering how this would factor into cases of rape? Under these laws being passed, a woman having an abortion after a rape would be punished more severely than the man who raped her. I hope you at least take issue with this? I mean, how can you deny that that isn't misogyny at its deepest?
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cherry68
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Post by cherry68 on Jun 1, 2019 16:47:30 GMT
I'm not familiar with American laws on this. In Italy, fathers are obliged to recognize the paternity of the child (if they refuse and there's a clue they might be the father, they are obliged to get the DNA test. Refusing to take the test allows the court to declare the paternity), and this means full support for the baby (financially but even morally / taking care of him/her and so on). Children born outside a marriage have the exact same rights as the others. American law doesn't really differ in this way, but I'm wondering how this would factor into cases of rape? Under these laws being passed, a woman having an abortion after a rape would be punished more severely than the man who raped her. I hope you at least take issue with this? I mean, how can you deny that that isn't misogyny at its deepest? In case of rape, the judge would declare that giving the rapist the paternity is not in favor of the child. In that case, he'll be obliged to financial support without having the paternity. Abortion is allowed in the first weeks (even heartbeat law says the same). There are mothers who decide to abort, some decide to give the baby for adoption, and some keep the child and raise him/her. I guess the last two feel pity for the innocent child more than the pity they feel for themselves.
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Post by Pasquale on Jun 3, 2019 4:09:46 GMT
I'm not familiar with American laws on this. In Italy, fathers are obliged to recognize the paternity of the child (if they refuse and there's a clue they might be the father, they are obliged to get the DNA test. Refusing to take the test allows the court to declare the paternity), and this means full support for the baby (financially but even morally / taking care of him/her and so on). Children born outside a marriage have the exact same rights as the others. American law doesn't really differ in this way, but I'm wondering how this would factor into cases of rape? Under these laws being passed, a woman having an abortion after a rape would be punished more severely than the man who raped her. I hope you at least take issue with this? I mean, how can you deny that that isn't misogyny at its deepest? i am not willing to interrupt, but isn't the heartbeat law declaring when a pregnant woman and her doctors, are supposed to be murderers?
in my humble opinion, the state should punish murder- from any gender, harder than rape.
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Post by hugobolso on Jun 3, 2019 18:26:00 GMT
I think right now the heatbeat law is out of control by the liberals. Hollywood can't boycott states just because their govermnent decide that life started with conception, and in the sixth you can proove that is a human being is alive (or eight week, has neurological cells). In real fact, very little will change of American Citizen women life with this bill. Still will save 1000s of lives. And abortions will cost less
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Post by hugobolso on Jun 4, 2019 13:26:12 GMT
Sophie Turner and Jessica Chastain van abortion BILL, bit both filmed in North Ireland. Turner años in Malta hete the abortion is a crime .
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Post by IceTruckDexter on Jun 4, 2019 22:38:24 GMT
Curious - Do those of you who vehemently oppose abortion under nearly all circumstances also support laws that would demand more of fathers? Yes.
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Post by IceTruckDexter on Jun 4, 2019 22:40:05 GMT
This thread is painful to read. The anti-abortion crowd can't stop inviting an argument. iow... can't let it go. The pro-abortion crowd is robotically listing the terms and conditions of the liberal manual in its exact format. Again. Yawn. What would you have me do? Surrender?
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