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Post by pacinoyes on Apr 16, 2019 13:54:36 GMT
Has anyone any POV on these 3 Daily Wire guys control the discourse in ways that seem more pragmatic than anyone on the Left? I know these guys are not all "the same" - Shapiro I think is kind of a brilliant debater actually............... Klavan is the guy who um you know wrote a movie I love (A Shock To The System) and some other stuff that I don't.............. but in general they all form a sort of simple, direct, clear POV. I purposely left off Fox guys or Limbaugh because it's more "clearly" partisan or established as such but the Daily Wire seems like it could actually persuade someone not already on their side.
Who is a comparable commentator on the Left to the Daily Wire? - I like to read anything by Matt Taibbi and my political leaning is on the Left but can't think of anyone visually who sort of rides the same sort of serious discussion - who would be sort of a level above say John Oliver who I do like usually but isn't the same thing as far as I can tell ..........and imo doesn't occupy the spot Stewart used to(?)
I wonder how the discourse here might play into the election - who am I missing besides Maddow, Cenk Uygur or who is it that best articulates dissent on the left these days or is it just that in general left positions are more nuanced that they don't lend themselves to commentators in this way as The Daily Wire?
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Post by Joaquim on Apr 16, 2019 14:46:10 GMT
Just let Benji convert you already. Become one of us
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Film Socialism
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Post by Film Socialism on Apr 16, 2019 19:25:51 GMT
current affairs, chapo trap house, revleft radio, and sam seder come to mind, all of them are totally different but good places for left discourse in varying degrees of quality and presentation
being as how there are no real elected officials on the left in the US it stands to reason that they are non-existent in the discourse from a popular standpoint
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dazed
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Post by dazed on Apr 16, 2019 22:21:59 GMT
Secular talk (Kyle Kulinski) is my favorite political commentator. Some others that haven’t been named, such as Rational National and Humanist Report are good too.
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Post by mikediastavrone96 on Apr 17, 2019 0:34:55 GMT
I don't really listen to any specific commentators so I unfortunately can't add much in that regard, but I find calling Shapiro "pragmatic" an interesting take to say the least since his argumentative style is so stringent and dogmatic. He's certainly good at debating being as he studied law at Harvard and like any good lawyer he knows how to work his cherrypicking, logical fallacies, and false premises so they aren't immediately apparent.
When I think "pragmatist," I don't normally think of the guy who maintains total certitude that being transgender is a mental disorder when he A) is in no way qualified to speak with any degree of certainty on the issue at all, B) does not know the literature on the psychology of transgender individuals anyway, and C) falsely posits that transgender individuals experiencing high rates of depression/anxiety/suicidality is evidence for his argument (y'know, because the world is so awesome for transgender people so there's no other reason they'd ever be clinically distressed, just like how poor people don't experience elevated rates of mental illness).
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Post by pacinoyes on Apr 17, 2019 1:16:57 GMT
I meant the term pragmatist in regards to Shapiro across general issues more and while I do agree with the points you raise individually against his argument(s) here, this video (it's long so proceed with caution if you proceed) is actually an example of how pragmatic he is (or if more cynical "falsely appears") - he's awfully level-headed on an issue that most Americans aren't fully invested in anyway or going to think much deeper on regardless. The stringent and dogmatic side of him plays as almost "common sense" - or weirdly "unapologetic" in a positive way.
Like I don't know how you argue this issue in a way that seems more direct and clear-headed (and sensitive even in some ways) without getting bogged down on it - which inspired the thread here. A reasonable person in the middle would get why he feels the way he feels - and I am not seeing a comparable clear left voice commentator though I look forward to checking out the names given so far in the thread. Maybe the right always is easier to justify their positions but those Daily Wire guys seem much different in the track they take - much less obvious than Fox News etc.
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Post by countjohn on May 4, 2019 22:18:26 GMT
To be honest I think a certain kind of person is a lot more likely be be persuaded by Fox, Rush, or Alex Jones just because they're so demagogic and emotionist. From what I've seen of Ben Shapiro even when he has a point he makes it in such a bludgeon-y way he's not going to change the mind of someone who doesn't already agree with him, he's just going to make them mad ("trigger the libs, LOL"). Even aside from that he makes arguments a lot of the time that are sophistic. For instance I remember him saying one time that it's immoral to not have children because if everyone did that we'd be out of people. It's technically logical but not really.
I do think it's true that there are no great voices on the left these days. They have a giant list of issue they basically aren't willing to even discuss and come off as scolds most the time, which never changed anyone's mind. I had/have center-right views (Romney/Clinton voter) but have drifted away from Republicans/the right just because they're so awful, it has nothing to do with the left.
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Post by IceTruckDexter on May 5, 2019 13:52:14 GMT
To be honest I think a certain kind of person is a lot more likely be be persuaded by Fox, Rush, or Alex Jones just because they're so demagogic and emotionist. From what I've seen of Ben Shapiro even when he has a point he makes it in such a bludgeon-y way he's not going to change the mind of someone who doesn't already agree with him, he's just going to make them mad ("trigger the libs, LOL"). Even aside from that he makes arguments a lot of the time that are sophistic. For instance I remember him saying one time that it's immoral to not have children because if everyone did that we'd be out of people. It's technically logical but not really. I do think it's true that there are no great voices on the left these days. They have a giant list of issue they basically aren't willing to even discuss and come off as scolds most the time, which never changed anyone's mind. I had/have center-right views (Romney/Clinton voter) but have drifted away from Republicans/the right just because they're so awful, it has nothing to do with the left. Emotionist isn't a word so I don't know what you mean. I would disagree agree about Shapiro in his debate tactics. They're quite similar to Christopher Hitchens and he was famous for getting people on his side. Shapiro is a terrible host, his style doesn't work on his own to a camera. |
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Post by countjohn on May 5, 2019 16:51:31 GMT
To be honest I think a certain kind of person is a lot more likely be be persuaded by Fox, Rush, or Alex Jones just because they're so demagogic and emotionist. From what I've seen of Ben Shapiro even when he has a point he makes it in such a bludgeon-y way he's not going to change the mind of someone who doesn't already agree with him, he's just going to make them mad ("trigger the libs, LOL"). Even aside from that he makes arguments a lot of the time that are sophistic. For instance I remember him saying one time that it's immoral to not have children because if everyone did that we'd be out of people. It's technically logical but not really. I do think it's true that there are no great voices on the left these days. They have a giant list of issue they basically aren't willing to even discuss and come off as scolds most the time, which never changed anyone's mind. I had/have center-right views (Romney/Clinton voter) but have drifted away from Republicans/the right just because they're so awful, it has nothing to do with the left. Emotionist isn't a word so I don't know what you mean. I would disagree agree about Shapiro in his debate tactics. They're quite similar to Christopher Hitchens and he was famous for getting people on his side. Shapiro is a terrible host, his style doesn't work on his own to a camera. Seems pretty self explanatory, appeals to emotions like fear or anger as opposed to an argument built around facts or a logical progression of thought. I would say the same thing about Hitchens and most the New Atheist guys as I did about Shapiro. I don't believe in god, but not for the reasons they gave. They make high school debate class arguments, which is not the reason people believe or don't believe what they do. Hitchens was charismatic and cool (which Shapiro isn't) so that might have given him appeal with certain demographics like young men. |
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Post by IceTruckDexter on May 5, 2019 18:27:00 GMT
Emotionist isn't a word so I don't know what you mean. I would disagree agree about Shapiro in his debate tactics. They're quite similar to Christopher Hitchens and he was famous for getting people on his side. Shapiro is a terrible host, his style doesn't work on his own to a camera. Seems pretty self explanatory, appeals to emotions like fear or anger as opposed to an argument built around facts or a logical progression of thought. I would say the same thing about Hitchens and most the New Atheist guys as I did about Shapiro. I don't believe in god, but not for the reasons they gave. They make high school debate class arguments, which is not the reason people believe or don't believe what they do. Hitchens was charismatic and cool (which Shapiro isn't) so that might have given him appeal with certain demographics like young men. You accuse right wingers of that but not left wingers. The ignorance is monumental.
As for Hitchens which of his arguments were 'High school' level.
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Post by mrimpossible on May 9, 2019 16:55:46 GMT
I don't like Shapiro he's so predictable. He also makes over generalizations and straw man all the time and is a hypocrite. In my opinion he's a dumb person's idea of a smart person.
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atn
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Post by atn on May 9, 2019 19:11:30 GMT
I don't like Shapiro he's so predictable. He also makes over generalizations and straw man all the time and is a hypocrite. In my opinion he's a dumb person's idea of a smart person. I think at this point the "he's a dumb person's idea of a smart person" angle on Shapiro has become a dumb person's idea of a smart criticism. |
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Post by mrimpossible on May 9, 2019 20:22:16 GMT
I don't like Shapiro he's so predictable. He also makes over generalizations and straw man all the time and is a hypocrite. In my opinion he's a dumb person's idea of a smart person. I think at this point the "he's a dumb person's idea of a smart person" angle on Shapiro has become a dumb person's idea of a smart criticism. It’s true though he either grossly misrepresents the other side and is very hypocritical especially about POC. He loves smearing people as antisemites if they criticize the government of Israel. He’s also an extreme xenophobe especially when it comes to Muslims. |
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Post by IceTruckDexter on May 9, 2019 23:29:14 GMT
I don't like Shapiro he's so predictable. He also makes over generalizations and straw man all the time and is a hypocrite. In my opinion he's a dumb person's idea of a smart person. I keep hearing this straw man argument all the time but never once has anybody shown any evidence of it. |
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Post by IceTruckDexter on May 9, 2019 23:30:27 GMT
I think at this point the "he's a dumb person's idea of a smart person" angle on Shapiro has become a dumb person's idea of a smart criticism. It’s true though he either grossly misrepresents the other side and is very hypocritical especially about POC. He loves smearing people as antisemites if they criticize the government of Israel. He’s also an extreme xenophobe especially when it comes to Muslims. Now I know you never actually listen to the guy. |
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atn
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Post by atn on May 10, 2019 0:11:27 GMT
I think at this point the "he's a dumb person's idea of a smart person" angle on Shapiro has become a dumb person's idea of a smart criticism. It’s true though he either grossly misrepresents the other side and is very hypocritical especially about POC. He loves smearing people as antisemites if they criticize the government of Israel. He’s also an extreme xenophobe especially when it comes to Muslims. None of this is evidence that he is "a dumb person's idea of a smart person." Perhaps you ought to amend your criticism to dishonest, hypocritical, bad-faith, or something along those lines instead of repeating a reddit-tier talking point. Or, come up with a better reason to argue that he isn't as intelligent as he purports to be |
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Post by mrimpossible on May 10, 2019 0:57:02 GMT
It’s true though he either grossly misrepresents the other side and is very hypocritical especially about POC. He loves smearing people as antisemites if they criticize the government of Israel. He’s also an extreme xenophobe especially when it comes to Muslims. None of this is evidence that he is "a dumb person's idea of a smart person." Perhaps you ought to amend your criticism to dishonest, hypocritical, bad-faith, or something along those lines instead of repeating a reddit-tier talking point. Or, come up with a better reason to argue that he isn't as intelligent as he purports to be I’m still trying to figure if his cognitive dissonance is on purpose or not. I’ve heard him talk constantly all he does is regurgitate right wing talking points more swiftly than others... I’m more bored by him than anything else tbh but I guess he works for people who like to see the world in black or white. |
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Post by mrimpossible on May 10, 2019 1:00:50 GMT
It’s true though he either grossly misrepresents the other side and is very hypocritical especially about POC. He loves smearing people as antisemites if they criticize the government of Israel. He’s also an extreme xenophobe especially when it comes to Muslims. None of this is evidence that he is "a dumb person's idea of a smart person." Perhaps you ought to amend your criticism to dishonest, hypocritical, bad-faith, or something along those lines instead of repeating a reddit-tier talking point. Or, come up with a better reason to argue that he isn't as intelligent as he purports to be And I didn’t call him dumb. |
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Post by IceTruckDexter on May 10, 2019 11:22:23 GMT
None of this is evidence that he is "a dumb person's idea of a smart person." Perhaps you ought to amend your criticism to dishonest, hypocritical, bad-faith, or something along those lines instead of repeating a reddit-tier talking point. Or, come up with a better reason to argue that he isn't as intelligent as he purports to be And I didn’t call him dumb. Still nothing. |
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Post by dazed on May 11, 2019 13:52:12 GMT
Even though I think Shapiro is a great debater, put someone against him that knows what they’re talking about (such as Seder or Kulinski), and he’d easily lose the debate. This video is evident of that and it was actually pretty embarrassing to see how flustered he was getting.
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Post by pacinoyes on May 11, 2019 14:09:42 GMT
Even though I think Shapiro is a great debater, put someone against him that knows what they’re talking about (such as Seder or Kulinski), and he’d easily lose the debate. This video is evident of that and it was actually pretty embarrassing to see how flustered he was getting. I think this is actually not that - it's rather indicative of how divided we are, and how people see this. He didn't lose this debate because it wasn't a debate, but he got very annoyed (and definitely flustered) and he was totally unprepared for this - see at the beginning where he's checking his Daily Wire computer. Wtf Ben! What's the result of this - well people on the Left will mock him...........people on the Right defend him (somewhat like I'm doing though I'm not on the Right).......but honestly before he "quit" he was kind of winning this debate on merit and I say that as a person who leans far more to the Left. That "no mas" always will kill you though............you live in this arena .............sometimes you lose in this arena .......... |
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Post by dazed on May 11, 2019 14:23:10 GMT
Even though I think Shapiro is a great debater, put someone against him that knows what they’re talking about (such as Seder or Kulinski), and he’d easily lose the debate. This video is evident of that and it was actually pretty embarrassing to see how flustered he was getting. I think this is actually not that - it's rather indicative of how divided we are, and how people see this. He didn't lose this debate because it wasn't a debate, but he got very annoyed (and definitely flustered) and he was totally unprepared for this - see at the beginning where he's checking his Daily Wire computer. Wtf Ben! What's the result of this - well people on the Left will mock him...........people on the Right defend him (somewhat like I'm doing though I'm not on the Right).......but honestly before he "quit" he was kind of winning this debate on merit and I say that as a person who leans far more to the Left. That "no mas" always will kill you though............you live in this arena .............sometimes you lose in this arena .......... True, better to call it a conversation. No way he was winning though. His only argument was to keep going back to the idea that Andrew was some leftist trying to push his agenda (Andrew is not a leftist, so his argument falls apart right there). That’s partly due to Shapiro being unprepared. Shapiro even tweeted out how Andrew essentially tore him apart and how it’s “Andrew 1 Shapiro 0”, so in that case, even people on the right are saying how bad he did here. America is a lot more divided in regards to political positions in the industralized world because some of the ‘far left positions’ are just centrist (even right wing) positions in other countries, such as healthcare for an example. |
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Post by pacinoyes on May 11, 2019 14:48:29 GMT
Oh he clearly lost - it is 1-0 - especially by stopping but not in quite the way it's being made out - he makes several arguments here - especially until the "fascism" in Obama's speech where he he starts to flail .........but that kind of gets back to the thread topic:
When he's arguing position facts he's solid but he is easy to mock when he falls into an emotional trap and Neil is really attacking Shapiro with his own words....... and doing it quite well at that - but to somebody who wouldn't know either - ie the majority of voters in 2020 - this is sort of intellectual gamesmanship that doesn't matter much, right (or am I mistaken?)
Shapiro has a daily podcast, a #1 book recently, he drives that discourse far more than anyone in the US left does in that way - and I think those guys are much relevant to the political climate than an overt intellectual like Hitchens or a loudmouth with a microphone (Limbaugh) could be.........like to use your example, Kulinski could debate him, sure, but is there someone that sort of rivals that aspect of them (not Kulinski right?) and drive the discourse? I think we've maybe gone off the rails a bit with an "is Ben Shapiro smart at all" sidebar .....
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Post by Film Socialism on May 11, 2019 16:00:48 GMT
Oh he clearly lost - it is 1-0 - especially by stopping but not in quite the way it's being made out - he makes several arguments here - especially until the "fascism" in Obama's speech where he he starts to flail .........but that kind of gets back to the thread topic: When he's arguing position facts he's solid but he is easy to mock when he falls into an emotional trap and Neil is really attacking Shapiro with his own words....... and doing it quite well at that - but to somebody who wouldn't know either - ie the majority of voters in 2020 - this is sort of intellectual gamesmanship that doesn't matter much, right (or am I mistaken?) Shapiro has a daily podcast, a #1 book recently, he drives that discourse far more than anyone in the US left does in that way - and I think those guys are much relevant to the political climate than an overt intellectual like Hitchens or a loudmouth with a microphone (Limbaugh) could be.........like to use your example, Kulinski could debate him, sure, but is there someone that sort of rivals that aspect of them (not Kulinski right?) and drive the discourse? I think we've maybe gone off the rails a bit with an "is Ben Shapiro smart at all" sidebar ..... i'm not entirely sure what the point of the last paragraph here is; obviously because the united states is extremely right wing, a right winger (in this case, shapiro) will be more dominant than anyone on the left by metrics alone. if your question of "dominating the discourse" begins and ends at "sheer popularity" then it's relatively simple to set up generally good faith metrics and answer the question on your own. |
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Post by pacinoyes on May 11, 2019 16:32:58 GMT
Oh he clearly lost - it is 1-0 - especially by stopping but not in quite the way it's being made out - he makes several arguments here - especially until the "fascism" in Obama's speech where he he starts to flail .........but that kind of gets back to the thread topic: When he's arguing position facts he's solid but he is easy to mock when he falls into an emotional trap and Neil is really attacking Shapiro with his own words....... and doing it quite well at that - but to somebody who wouldn't know either - ie the majority of voters in 2020 - this is sort of intellectual gamesmanship that doesn't matter much, right (or am I mistaken?) Shapiro has a daily podcast, a #1 book recently, he drives that discourse far more than anyone in the US left does in that way - and I think those guys are much relevant to the political climate than an overt intellectual like Hitchens or a loudmouth with a microphone (Limbaugh) could be.........like to use your example, Kulinski could debate him, sure, but is there someone that sort of rivals that aspect of them (not Kulinski right?) and drive the discourse? I think we've maybe gone off the rails a bit with an "is Ben Shapiro smart at all" sidebar ..... i'm not entirely sure what the point of the last paragraph here is; obviously because the united states is extremely right wing, a right winger (in this case, shapiro) will be more dominant than anyone on the left by metrics alone. if your question of "dominating the discourse" begins and ends at "sheer popularity" then it's relatively simple to set up generally good faith metrics and answer the question on your own. Well the last paragraph sort of was a summation of the first post and topic at hand - but do you think that the US is extremely right wing? The left argues this all the time - ie we are closer to left middle than right middle and if people voted their "interests" they'd vote left. Rather than just arguing popularity I think it's just the right can codify their positions better and there's no one on the left able (yet?) to do the same - it's not "just" popularity but that's part of it. I can see Michael Knowles having a lot in common with various people ...........I'm not so sure about Cenk Uygur at all in his role as a commentator at least. I'm starting to think it really is someone like Maddow I guess ........... The 3 guys mentioned in the subject line sometimes disagree with each other - so it's not even a thing where they are spewing the same exact rhetoric - the left I'm afraid to say is doing that more it seems to me and seems indistinguishable to me at the moment at least....... |
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